@Jear77 The question is more about the social constructionist view that humans are a blank slate and everything is merely an imprint of society. right and wrong, gender and sex roles, hierarchy of meaning and value.
It’s the age-old slave versus Master mentality.
The main reason to deny freedom and flee into the slave, is to avoid responsibility for oneself.
@griz if there are things, forces unseen, unknowable through science, (as your belief there are), how can it be said we are responsible for our actions if we can’t truly know if our actions are influenced in large or incredibly subtle ways or not? There laws in society to say that say essentially “if you influence a person to do x or y based on a difference of power, you are legally culpable for their actions” – and if your beliefs are true, both god and the devil are in for some serious legal problems!
@griz i can’t believe in anything unprovable either scientifically or logically. Occam’s razor would say it’s simpler to not believe in god… because it’s unnecessary… and his salvation plan is convoluted at best… and cruel at worse. Choose.
@Jear77 Do you remember the so-called evil trinity that I mentioned a while back?
Resentment, arrogance and deception?
Consider the self-deception in the assertion you cannot believe in anything unprovable by science and logic.
Self-blinding stubbornness is a very strong belief many hold to that is not supported by logic or science. (And I could cite other examples in an exercise of over kill)
In God’s plan of salvation through Christ the only thing remotely difficult (what you call convoluted or cruel), is mastering our attitude of arrogance and self-deception. Seeing it as convoluted and cruel just means that we are seeing our own nature superimposed.
There can be no salvation from ourselves (our lower base nature that condemns), without first mastering this attitude.
This holds regardless of whether one seeks salvation through God this whole regardless of whether that salvation is sought through science, through logic, Or through God.
An arrogant attitude will mess them all up. (Leading to increased resentment and deception).
In all those years were you seeking God’s greater glory; or just your own?
It’s ironic that you say in another post something along the lines of solve these multiple threads and all these things will be cleared up, maybe more. You responded (essentially) the same thing thrice, sounding like a broken record?
Ultimate “solving” can only occur after death… ONLY if you’re right. I can’t… I won’t live for the eventuality of that, as it can’t help instantly – nor will it ever be at the level I demand… so it’s useless to continue this train of thought. I don’t want to waste your time… nor have you waste mine. It has to be my decision, my choice… and it simply… is not.
I had typed a lot more, erased it to try to give you a more concise answer, but even this turned out to be wordier than I had truly wanted, as it’s not fair.
It contrast sharply to a large number of tried-and-true “primitive” exercises where seekers intentionally left all of this behind, often even foregoing the essentials of food and shelter, and somehow jumped right to the top of Maslow’s theoretical hierarchy.
While the theory might have some truth in the general and most obvious sense, it seems more geared to providing excuses why so few reach the top of their own volition.
Any “theory” relying on too many caveats and exclusions for times when it doesn’t hold true is of limited practical value.
@griz yet take those essentials away from everyone (something comes along and destroys everything that we need to survive – all buildings, man made objects crumble to nothing, all food sources rot) and i guarantee you that self actualization will be nonexistent. We’ll be too busy trying to cover our nakedness, figure out shelter and food to do ought else!
@Jear77 While I understand the nature of our flesh (our human nature) is instinctually powerful, it is probably a mistake to presume our personal competency levels as the species’ norm. (Physical psychological or spiritual; in presence and in absence)
Our greatest hero archetypes are predicated upon the Human spirit not the Human nature.
They were not lacking in responsibility for themselves or towards the greater social structure they were a part of. Nor were they physically morally or socially incompetent. (Aloof at times but not incompetent).
Have you noticed that you’re still trying to harvest just the parts of various belief systems that you think you can use for your own greater glory? This is what cause your Christian experiment to fail. It is causing your scientism experiment to fail. It is causing your exercises of logic to fail. It is likely what is causing your economic experiments to fail.
Master this attitude and a lot of things will be fixed as a matter of course. It is the very first and most enduring fix in the Christian salvation process that matures out of base self-servile infancy.
Consider also that “a meaning of no meaning” maps directly into this same attitude as well.
@griz stop using that grammatically unsound structure and come upvwith something that makes sense! Glory hound would likely be the closestc American colloquialism… and it makes no sense here. I never sought the spotlight. I didn’t want to be on tbe news. Whereas i may have wanted to be published, i never wanted to be famous. Nothing about me seeks glory. Serving the homeless community for 10 years – on government assistance for food would indicate the *exact* opposite. Heck, many times it was so bad, the lights and gas, even the warmter services were turned off… and to this day i can’t have a bill in my name. I’m sometimes working 50+ hours weekky and STILL can’t afford to put food on my table without that same governmental assistance. So saying i am seeking glory is ludicrous.
@Jear77 The public glory was only the most visible tip of the personal profit iceberg they craved. Things were done seeking profit; both here and in the afterlife. The prime motivation was not the kingdom but how they could profit from the kingdom. Relax the noose of your restrictive thinking to see that profit does not have to be money or fame or spotlight.
It can simply mean “a good feeling for me”. Not as ” side effect”, which is part of a good process. But as “prime effect”, which maps into addictive and toxic process.
And the number one reason for ceasing in religious works, is that the desired “profit” is not forthcoming. (Indicating a toxic process from the get-go. The Bible clearly cautions that one should not expect anything beyond what the world may award them in that moment)
I will continue using terms that have the broadest application. You will just have to get used to it.
(The trick there is to not just substitute the term that is “for your own greater glory”! Remember that the unregenerate human soul does this quite naturally unless it is “saved” from itself).