Also, if not logical, why do humans do so?




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  1. Jear77 11 months ago

    The problem with the concept of proof is people will see what they want to see. Then there’s the placebo effect, which can be as high as 72%. Especially when talking about the concept of a god, the level of proof needs to be at a much higher level, i.e. 100%. Going solely on the powers and abilities that Jesus demonstrated in his earthly ministry, Christians should be able to routinely heal, raise the dead, walk on water, turn water into wine, cast out demons, multiply food, pasd through solid objects, teleport, “avatar” mode (i.e. tbe transfiguration) and knocking down soldiers with a phrase. This is at tne base level. The bible says “greater things” – and so we add such things as flight, physical invulnerability to assault and diseases, slowing or stopping of aging, defeating of armies singlehandedly, and the like. And this should be what every Christian experiences, because the bible’s god is that much greater that Galactus.

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    • Author
      Scarlett 11 months ago

      @Jear77 indeed and one has to wonderful why a loving, all powerful god would create the world as it is?

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Scarlett
        It’s a fair enough question. One I’ve asked myself repeatedly, until I managed something akin to a partial answer. I think!

        While humans can exercise pure love, our expression of it is often tainted with emotions — unto the very process by which a mother thinks they are “loving” their children by sanitizing both them and everything they touch; bulldozing all “bullies” out of their way; and doing their proverbial (actual?) homework for them. We can do a lot of things we THINK are “love” — but are actually more akin to hate. (Or just self-love at the expense of others? It’s not easy to see a child you love bullied. But that doesn’t just “go away” in the adult world and we rob them of the ability to know how to deal with it just for the sake of our ease in the moment)

        We also tend to think that “power” (or the variant “freedom”) means “no consequence for actions (taken and not)”. It’s sort of the child’s definition.

        A child cannot know all of the game pieces that are in play, not just on this dimension but in possible multiple dimensions. An all-powerful being could theoretically turn the sky polka-dot and manage all of the disruptions across myriad dimensions. But what would be lost or altered in the process that might be necessary “elsewhere”?

        Now bring back “love”. Does a loving parent curse one child just so they can bless another?

        We have the “muscles” to understand these things if we REALLY want to exercise them. And I think that is exactly what it comes down to.

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz go through the bible’s definition of love (which god supposedly is) and compare it to a human lifespan and you won’t see things that way. We have, what? Max 100 years to turn over your life to god… vs. eternity of suffering. How is that patient, kind, and “keep no record of wrong”, protecting, trusting, hopeful, or preserving? Compared to the eternity, it’s needlessly impatient, cruel, and it DOES keep a record in the book of life. Get my point?

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        I have. And with perhaps still a third of my life to live this is how I see things.

        So while a longer perception of time helps in many things, it’s not necessary for coming to such realizations.

        Actually it’s probably more like YOU keep the record of all the anti-Life things you did, and then this is measured with perfect recall against the powerful perfect standard. And “sin” cannot exist in the presence of perfect sinlessness.

        The religious narrative you cleave to is too angry and bitter to allow for anything that doesn’t feed the anger and bitterness.

        (Sort of like how the fruits of a particular spirit, place one “in the presence” of that spirit; and not the contrary spirit.)

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz i keep a record…. LOL. That’s absurd. I can’t remember what i did today. Yesterday, i really can’t remember, and beyond that it doesn’t matter. It’s all a blur, and meaningless to me, to the standard of perfection. So i get off scott free!

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        Nothing that happens to you is lost.

        It’s in there even if we lose track of them.

        That is why things haunt us. Own us. Create flashes of nostalgia. Traumatic flashbacks. Craft reactions that we wonder where they came from.
        The zeal for deathbed confessions.

        They are all there.

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz for someone so haunted, i sure sleep fine! No such a person could ever get a decent night’s sleep

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        Mental blocks have proved very effective for a season. But they are very expensive to maintain, intend to spin off all kinds of negative consequences. I heard you say repeatedly that you feel you have only sufficient energy for the absolute essentials of survival each day.
        I relate because I had a few myself related to my past. I was amazed at the resources freed up when I no longer had to “pay” to maintain them.

        The ability to sleep right now is a superficial metric at best. Apparently even Hitler and Vlad Dracula slept well . . . for a season.

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz i don’t have resources because of lack of money. If god existed, and truly wanted me to havexsaid resources, the solution is amazingly simple. If it exists, it can’t be bothered. So, therefore, i can’t be bothered either.

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        You seriously saw my response is being about money?

        What would you propose the dollar value is of maintaining a mental block? (Per year, USD) :rolf:

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz if you’re completely without $, you would definitely feel that it is a valid thing to label as a resource!

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        Well, we could have a discussion about working a job and still being completely out of money. It would be a discussion on competence, planning and accountability.

        But again, my response was about the high cost of maintaining mental blocks — and the fact that they can be effective for a season. But the bill almost always comes due in some way in this life.
        And perhaps beyond.

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz with sufficient $ i could hire a nurse and a separate honemaker/ maid to take care of my ailing mother. With even more, i could fly out experts – the best in the world to treat her. I know my dad’s injuries are basically set, and no current medical technology can really help him. I know also my brother’s drinking is centered around him wanting to forget what he did and what was done to him. Finally I know my friend’s business and physical ailments are just a matter of time and money. Add to that my own physical problems and financial woes.

        Yet with the full power of god at my beck and call none of these costs… nor the unknown at this point mental blocks would be a thing … so is it no small wonder that I am saying “all or nothing”?

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        With the proclivity for our ego process to become our stand-in Almighty, it’s surprising that we don’t all run around saying this.

        But most people don’t. Including people poorer than you.

        And almost everyone who could be classified as successful in any way, probably doesn’t think like this.

        They pick up the challenges and sufferings and limitations that they have, and move ahead despite them.

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz if god exists and designed us with them, he has no one to blame for our failures but himself…

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      • griz 10 months ago

        @Jear77
        You cannot blame your parents for everything, without remaining an ungrateful child unwilling to take up their own destiny and run with it.

        Because with every potential for failure there is also potential to succeed.

        Depending upon what one chooses to focus on.

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      • Jear77 10 months ago

        @griz so? If i am… That’s exactly how i was created! Remember if tou believe in an omniscient god, too every failure,was forekbown, foreordained… so saying that success is a possibility when failure is preknown… is quite frankly absurd.

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      • griz 10 months ago

        @Jear77
        Agency is not absurd.

        It’s actually rather miraculous.

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      • Jear77 10 months ago

        @griz agency is absurd with omniscience

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      • griz 10 months ago

        @Jear77
        Again, at what point are you supposing you have omniscience to make your agency absurd?

        It’s self-defeating to try to falsify someone one has never known. (That is why you have to misrepresent Scripture so frequently to maintain ideology).

        If one wants to irrationally hate, just say “I want to irrationally hate” and be done with it. Trying to cloak it in rational reason and intelligence is what invites discourse seeking an intellectual commonality.

        You’ve already “become hypocrisy”, and seem proud of it. Why not just “become irrationality and hate”?

        (Although then we would have no grounds for these discussions, which I think we both find value in and perhaps even enjoy!)

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      • Jear77 10 months ago

        @griz it’s hypocritical… which you claim to hate. It’s illogical which you claim to embody. You can’t have both beliefs. Choose ONE. If you don’t i assume you’re both the things you despise.

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  2. griz 11 months ago

    We act out what we believe. We act as if we believe things are so. Even without “proof” in scientific terms.

    People have been doing this for millions of years before science came to “enlighten” us. It is a very new arrival. And it is very good to not think too little — or to much — of it.

    Remember, we’ve acted out narratives (family, marriage, father, mother, child, heroic struggle, the jestor) VERY successfully, LONG before the psychological sciences came along to attach “logic” to them.

    Did they “not exist” before we got smart enough to put scientific labels and “handles” on them?

    While “scientific proof” is a very good thing — it is NOT what makes something real or even logical.

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    • Jear77 11 months ago

      @griz be that as it may, don’t forget we can attach meaning, narratives to something that doesn’t exist, can’t exist due to faulty information, understanding, or proccesses at work. People want to see patterns because that’s the way we’re built. But it could be equally true that our brains assign patterns and meaning where none exist.

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        The very nature of evolution is that if it cannot be iterated successfully throughout time, it goes extinct.

        And Jung proposed that the “archetypes” (some of which I mentioned above) don’t just persist but popped up spontaneously in so many cultures that had no contact, because they are “good”.

        That doesn’t dismiss that there are “bad” ones which have gone extinct, which keep trying to come back (like marxism!), which are in the process of going extinct.

        We are hard-wired for pattern recognition. Psychologists call it our “hyperactive agency detection device” (HADD). It’s what causes children to fear the monster under the bed and drives conspiracy theorists bonkers. It’s also a major feature in most “creeper” horror movies.
        But like any endemic process it can either be mastered unto being a gift — or left to mis-fire unto it being a curse.

        There ARE patterns of “agency” out there; as well as perceived patterns that are just mis-fires because we’ve not properly “exercised” that muscle.
        And we are the only ones who can exercise it. (Ie, nobody is going to hand it to you. You have to put in the “gym hours” before you will have a muscle you can be confident will do the “heavy lifting” you require of it without injury).

        It’s out there Jear. I’ve experienced it repeated times this week unto a string of bizarre results for both self and others that while certainly “possible” — were certainly not probable.

        Some patterns it seems practically beg to be discovered. BUT one has to allow themselves to go where they CAN be discovered .
        Do you remember long ago when I said if one REALLY wants to meet with a Bolivian, one doesn’t go to Scotland.
        One goes to Bolivia.

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz the problem is that to meet with the creator one has to die. Anything else is delusional. That, or we need to actually need a diety that is bound by the laws of science, what one would likely call a vending machine. Do x, get y. Do x and y, get z, and so on. A perfect system where one always knows what they’re going to get and in what time frame. In my life, unless i can know what i’m getting… and in when… it’s not worth my time.

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        One knows the creator of life through life. Not death!

        You are still trying to play religious vending machine with God/Life. That’s why you’re getting the payouts you are.

        The laws of science as you call them, are just a few hundred years old.

        Unless the supposition is that something more eternal pre-existed and science is just now starting to attach a framework that we can begin to understand.

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz so you’re saying that the laws of science were nust invented for these past few hundred generations? Bullshit.

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        Actually your line of reasoning seems to be saying that.

        I’ve always said the natural processes have pre-existed even before we could articulate them and start to predict them with science.

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz so if they’re preexisting, why don’t we perform a little experiment and go back in time to see how it all began, before the big bang and see how tbings dtarted? Surely we’d be able to see god working… or would we simply see the scientific proccesses that set everything in motion?!

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        If you have a feasible methodology for this little experiment I’m game. (Remembering that speculative reasoning tends to be more a masterbation than an experiment!)

        But I think there is more value in a different game; one we can both play without ripping through the space-time continuum or having a lot of unnecessary goo to clean up!

        This moment right now is the point of creation for all possible futures. Do those sets of possible Futures track more heavenly or more hellish?

        Look back just 24 hours. Did our decisions and actions then, result in a now that is more heavenly than just a day ago?
        Or more hellish?

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz more heavenly. If i don’t miss any days, i am guaranteed to be able to pay my bills – and that’s a good thing. Compare that to god’s business plan.
        Those who play his game may not get the reward of their labor because they failed in one miniscule point, something so small that anyone else would shrug over it. That amounts to god saying “i’ll pay if i want to” and there’s no legal discourse against him.

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77
        Having gainfulemployment is not contrary to God’s plan for this moment we find ourselves in. It’s actually a valid model of it (suitable sacrifice in the now, for a greater future gain)

        The only “miniscule” point of failing, would be having such a large ego as to fancy ourselves “as unto God”.

        And that’s a pretty huge miniscule!

        So would you consider your mental state outlook and prospects as more heavenly as well?
        What about your participation with life and others?

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz but you so conveniently forget there’s the thing of “for i was… and you did/ did not” and “neither hot nor cold but lukewarm…” and “did we not do [such and so] if your name… i tell you i knew you not” passages. This tells me loud and clear that if someone gets busy with their own life, no matter what they did previously, god is so petty as to say “bye-bye” over some what i would call minor oversights.
        What? You want to get blocked? Or have me disappear from here forever? That’d be the biggest mental heavenly thing i could possibly ever do.

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Jear77

        When the Spirit of the Law lives in us we are no longer under the dispensation of law but under grace. Which means we can act freely and graciously, rather than as someone in a prison where every infraction causes punishment.

        The person who has not been set free has to live like a prisoner.

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      • Jear77 11 months ago

        @griz the point is neiher law NOR grace needed to have existed to begin with. Why put your hope in something that didn’t have to exist in the 1st place?

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      • griz 10 months ago

        @Jear77
        There could have been nothingness.
        Tyranny.

        But instead there was something.
        Possibility. Participation.

        Rather awesome, actually.

        You see?
        We can choose to seek that which is beautiful.

        Or that which is ugly.

        So why do we choose . . . that which we choose?

        Why choose the negative, and the losing side that leaves us bankrupt?

        Why indeed?

        Psychology looms.

        Of beckons?

        We
        Get.

        To choose.

        Our meaning.

        (That’s awesome. Or terrible. . , . depending . . . )

        Why would you choose terrible? Unless you think you’re terrible?

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      • Jear77 10 months ago

        @griz not at all. I see that existence, possibility is the more tyrannical outcome because of the fact that it defeats the purpose of design. Impossibility is better. If you design everything to have fellowship with man… yet even letting one not be in fellowship, completely erradicates the design’s reason. The only outcome that this cannot happen is one in which everyone is savedno mstter what

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      • griz 10 months ago

        @Jear77
        Incorrect presumptions are a poor basis for anything.

        The design is for the possibility of fellowship.

        Choice. What part of fellowship . . . do you see as forced?

        Again Jear: why are you craving the tyrant?
        (Hint: so you can then hate it? Which is the choice to go out of one’s way to create something to dose negative on.)

        Who are you trying to punish??

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      • Jear77 10 months ago

        @griz i am pretty spot on. God may think he’s the winner, BUT because he knew the end from the beginning, he seriously couldn’t find any better way to enect things than to create evil? I’m sorry, if you have to create evil, knowing everything that would come from it, that action completely erradicates your claim of goodness, holiness. And to add insult to injury, in addition to creating evil, he designed, designates in advance those who are to end up in hell by failing to intervene. It’s as if the devil won his point by the very nature of his existence and that god by necessity must send those who don’t fit into his plan to hell which he knew in eternity past. That is the ultimate tyranny, that there is no 3rd (or infinite other options, sweing this is a god of infinitudes) for those thst don’t choose (or are not chosen by) him.

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      • griz 10 months ago

        @Jear77
        It is not a correct presumption that fellowship/relationship entails a winner and a loser.

        Nor that one allies themselves with someone just so they can take care of you and do all the work, and you have someone to blame when your expectations are not met.

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      • Jear77 10 months ago

        @griz no matter your linguistic acrobatics, you can’t escape the fact god, if it exists, created evil knowing full well what he created.

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      • griz 10 months ago

        @Jear77
        And no matter your logistical acrobatics, you cannot escape the fact that Reality manifests in duality from the distinction between light and dark, heat and cold, and all the way down to the sub-atomic and possibly beyond.

        And to tell you the truth, I really don’t think you would like or do well under a system where you lacked the moral agency to divide between good and evil.

        What would you ever find to complain about and drive yourself insane with?? :wink:

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      • Jear77 10 months ago

        @griz actually i’d do VERY well… i’d be a robot or animal operating off of instinct . An ideal situation for me.

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      • griz 10 months ago

        @Jear77
        Then forsake civilization and take off into the woods.

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      • Jear77 10 months ago

        @griz mindless… as created, not abandoning what i have.

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      • griz 10 months ago

        @Jear77
        Aren’t you?

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      • Jear77 10 months ago

        @griz no. Babies have minds, even if undeveloped, and needing years to become who and what they eventually will. If it weren’t so, abortion, infanticide wouldn’t be reprehensible.

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    • Author
      Scarlett 11 months ago

      @griz indeed, but I feel like the acting out of these things you mention were more of a survival mechanism of the times, and yes, they do get imprinted into our DNA, and we continue to use them over a great many years, many times even subconsciously. However, just because somethings always been done some way does not mean it has to always be that way forevermore. As humans have evolved, it has become less necessary to act solely on base instincts. It has also become less necessary, as you yourself has pointed out to be dictated by our feelings. The world is changing whether one likes it or not, and it is good to be able to adapt to the changes.

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Scarlett
        There may well be better configurations for a wheel other than round. But for now it is the best way to get the job done.

        Things get “imprinted” on DNA, because they have “worked” over the time-frames in which evolution works (ie, far longer than our lifespan).

        I think we like to conveniently “forget” this just so we can ply agendas and ideologies that are emotionally pleasing within the span of a lifetime — or more frequently just within shorter spans (days, minutes?)

        So here’s a question. Do you think the modern person is more or less governed by their emotions and feelings than just 100 years ago? (A good reference-point are literary works from that era).

        Maybe I move in different crowds that most, but I see a LOT more “common sense” demonstrated in the past than in the current era. Even our elections are rampant emotion-fests. So are the “safety culture” constructs. So to a good degree is the GBLTTQQIPP . . . . culture. So too are the horrors of debt that are rampant.

        Are we more in control of our feelings? Or are they more in control of us?

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      • Author
        Scarlett 11 months ago

        @griz consider that you may be reacting to your own emotions with these thought trains you have. You may be reacting to your own feelings about the perceived wrongness of the safety culture or the perceived wrongness of non-traditional families etc. why is it that one person’s feelings about a matter are more valuable and correct than another?

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Scarlett
        It is certainly possible. Emotions and feelings are an inexorable part of The Human Experience.

        But most wisdom/spiritual traditions worth their salt advocate some form of control or detachment from them for the sake of clear thinking. The scientific process does the same. As does the training for most professions requiring some form of professionalism in the face of extreme situations.

        In the judeo Christian paradigm this is found in the discourses on the flesh vs the spirit: how they tend to work in opposition to each other. The gist of it is that you are either serving one or the other in any given circumstance.
        I shared this before in the idea of you having the emotions rather than the emotions having you.

        But in postmodern times we see the rise of a very few professions who in combination with victimhood identity politics, seem to advocate detachment from clear thinking and critical analysis to augment the emotions over most other considerations. There is no denying the short-term feeling of power that’s some more assertive feelings/emotions bring.

        This seems to happen when the driving force is power over others, rather than the Quest for wisdom or truth. Ie, clear thinking.

        In the absence of this we hear things like the question of why one person’s feelings are more correct than another’s.
        (Which is actually post-modernism over simplified)

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      • Author
        Scarlett 11 months ago

        @griz False. it is a very legitimate question based on many things you have written on this site. What I have seen in your writings is rampant favoritism towards the majority and bias against minorities. Trouble is, there is actual evidence, scientific and otherwise to disprove a lot of your statements. You don’t want gay people, biologists have proven that this is in one’s chemical makeup rather than a “feeling” as you say that they act on. You don’t believe African Americans should have movements? Statistics show that African Americans are not provided the same consideration for jobs, educational opportunities, they are targeted by the police, imprisoned etc at a much higher rate than their white counterparts. You don’t want people to wash hands and surfaces. Evidence shows that hand washing is the single most effective method to infection control. You don’t want any “victims”, you want people to suck it up and move on. We are now learning that there is a public health crisis surrounding those who have experienced trauma. Statistics show that they have a much higher rate of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure and other diseases. What I think happens here is that you have quite a great many “feelings” that you have harbored from your youth, coupled with your desires for things to be the way they used to be.

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @Scarlett
        My only bias is against identity victimhood ideologies where control is sought purely as a function of power: which history has proven is a bad (Ie, genocidal) idea.

        I would assert that the Public Health crisis around the consequences of trauma rests more in those who are pushing to make trauma their identity.
        Remember that you yourself once praised the idea of antifragility.

        Group fragility is a strenuous and unnatural path; so of course it is going to spin off more of the physical and mental pathologies you mentioned.

        The key problem is ideology-charged rationalized motivation in one’s thinking.

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      • immortal_pirate 11 months ago

        @griz
        “So too are the horrors of debt that are rampant.”
        Financial debt is great weight upon mankind. An even greater debt is “spiritual debt”. But we can rest assured, that our spiritual debt has been paid in full…by the shed blood of our Savior Jesus Christ, for the remission of sin.

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      • griz 11 months ago

        @immortal_pirate
        There is a huge difference between a bankruptcy lawyer and a redeemer!

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  3. Yin 11 months ago

    It depends on what kind of evidence you have or what type of thinking and logic you are using. It also matters how it impacts your life, like how you react when someone challenges it. I, for example, believe in a multiverse. I don’t have evidence of it, but we have evidence of a universe since we live in one. We also live on a planet and in a galaxy, which are plentiful. Going by that, multiple universes aren’t totally illogical. If someone disagrees with me and whatnot, that is fine. I have nothing to back my belief, so there can be no argument from me. One universe could be right and I am fine with that. It would be illogical if I took that belief and basically worshiped it. Maybe it is still illogical, but it is one you could easily ignore.

    Humans started to ask questions and then we just became highly curious about everything. Our curiosity became “reality.” We took our beliefs and shaped our world solely on them. When we meet a power that puts us in danger, we usually bow to that power to protect ourselves and to gain that power as an ally. With those two ideas together, the people controlling the beliefs had the power. So, life-engulfing curiosity and power by manipulating everyone else are two big factors in why we do it.

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    • Author
      Scarlett 11 months ago

      @Yin a splendid response. And do you think it is simply more comfortable for most people not to challenge their own beliefs?

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      • Yin 11 months ago

        @Scarlett Absolutely. It becomes a sense of identity. We create our identity on so many things, even if we don’t mean to. A band came out with a song a few years ago and the reason they wrote it is because someone asked them who they were suppose to be if they were actually cured of depression, which that question never dawned on me before that. Beliefs and feelings become who we are and we would be lost and vulnerable if they are stripped away. It’s hard to hit restart and move on from what you believed. Change is scary. Moving to a new town, state, or country is probably very difficult to do. Same goes with beliefs. You have to educate yourself again on the new beliefs you hold or letting go of those you dropped. You have to get comfortable with “the neighborhood.”

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      • Author
        Scarlett 11 months ago

        @Yin makes sense. I have had therapy in the past and one of the things we did was to deconstruct my own beliefs and try to figure out which of them were engrained in me by my parents or others in my world, and which ones I actually believed? I think its good to do this from time to time. I feel like more and more people have a hard time practicing intellectual fair-mindedness though, where they consider different sides.

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  4. five2one 11 months ago

    People do have evidence of God. But, that does not mean they understand the ramifications. This is why they took the teachings of Jesus and used them for their own ends: modern Democracy, Islam, Nazism, Communism, all three branches of Christianity, and so on.

    They understand Jesus is God in the flesh, but that does not mean they actually believe in him, or understand what that means — they are lying. Obviously, the church leaders are the very worst.

    Worse, the “Second Coming” has already happened, and they know it, but refuse to admit it. Of course, it didn’t happen like they planned. But, on the other hand, they spent centuries doing everything they could to prevent it.

    Nobody advised them, they were left in the dark. The term “second coming” is never even mentioned. They drew wrong conclusions about what was going to happen.

    You can tell by his voice, his face, the words he wrote — Jim Morrison.

    Hahahaha…. :-)

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