I’m thinking specifically of the political debate. There’s a lot of pulling apart and tribal fighting going on, as if a part of the social order is one’s “mortal enemy”.

But we got to where we are because of the discussion and interplay between liberals and conservatives. The liberals come to the fore when there are changes afoot that convention cannot deal with. And the conservatives come to the fore when things are getting too chaotic and convention is the stabilizing factor.

And it’s like the playing field we are on is tilting back and forth. So sometimes “the other side” . . . even if they are annoying and not nearly as intelligent as you . . . are right and you are wrong.

It’s too bad the zeal tribal warfare is too often shutting down the dialogue and manifesting in profound disrespect for “the other tribe” — without which our society would tilt past critical and slip off the pin.




39 Comments

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  1. Jear77 10 months ago

    I can.
    Can you? Let’s say you were invited to a gay wedding? What about sharing a table with an adulturer? A murderer? A thief? A person so puffed up with pride hardly anyone could stand to be around them? How about a person who practices witchcraft?

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    • ladybarbara 10 months ago

      @Jear77 You just described my family, except we don’t have a murderer. However, I have sat on Death Row with serial Killers, and Immortal Pirate has been a Correctional Officer in a prison housing all of that list. We went to my Mom’s funeral and sat with people from most of that list — minus a murderer. We got along just fine and all of the family loved Immortal Pirate. They look up to him, and not because some of them are short.

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    • Author
      griz 10 months ago

      @Jear77
      Well, I can still respect people who try to make non-political discussions political, and political discussion non-political!

      So I suppose that’s a start!

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      • Jear77 10 months ago

        @griz generally speaking, politicians are liars or well intentioned people who may have good ideas, but lack the ability to bring them about because they can’t agree on a compromise to move things forward. Neither side is totally right or wrong, as each brings something different to the table .

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      • Author
        griz 10 months ago

        @Jear77
        But they are radically distracted by tribal extremism. They could get a lot more done if the competition/cooperation equation was rebalanced.

        A hockey game sports higher levels of cooperation than the typical political process these days!

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  2. spitfire3dc 10 months ago

    As far as the left/right debate is concerned; I can’t say that I really have a lot of respect for anyone that labels themselves as such. The point of left/right debate is to find a way to reach consensus where both perspectives are somewhat satisfied. When one or the other takes precedence; its just as bad as the Taliban trying to dictate their extremist views.

    I understand the economic influence on the right and the social agenda on the left. Both perspectives are important to end up somewhere where coexistence results in a best case scenario.

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    • Author
      griz 10 months ago

      @Spitfire3dC
      This was more a thought aimed at the unbalance of political extremism. And I agree that from a point of balance, respect for extremists is . . . difficult.

      I heard an analogy the other day of a nation’s progress through the environment of time being as if on a ridge that snakes back and forth with cliffs on both sides. While the centre-line is least in danger of falling off a cliff individually, if the nation goes so does everyone. For we are all connected.

      And there are times when only liberals can pull the nation back from the brink and times when only conservatives can pull the nation back from the brink. So dividing into factions to play tribal warfare (which then by natural consequence grows more and more extremist over time), is inviting the nation to fall off a cliff.

      And it’s very hard to respect a position of inviting self-destruction for the sake of short-term psychological or political gain. It parses as . . . reprehensible. It’s curious that we seem only able to see this with specific forms of extremism “over there” . . . but cannot see the caution of factionist extremism “right here”.

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      • spitfire3dc 10 months ago

        @griz I see it right here as well. Ontario is running a parallel election at the moment and although Doug Ford is not the political neophyte that Drumpf is, he is trying to ring the same bells. The Crooked Hillary tactic is alive and well and so it should be, although I think many of us already understand the rarity of an ethical politician that doesn’t have to be a contradiction in terms.

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      • Author
        griz 10 months ago

        @Spitfire3dC
        We had a rather ethical fellow in the Simcoe North riding who managed to keep a good balance through several election cycles. I chatted with him on occasion and as years went by his armour tarnished a bit. He was worn down by the reality that he could find fewer and fewer people willing to play the ethical game.

        Voters could easily turn this around — but fewer and fewer of them value the ethical game it seems!

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      • spitfire3dc 10 months ago

        @griz I knew a businessman who went to Ottawa as an MP. He lasted two terms. His words, “You either learn to swim in the cesspool, or you drown in it”

        In the last provincial election, my chosen MPP lost. Met him day after election and he was thrilled. He was glad the experience was behind him.

        Sad.

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      • Author
        griz 10 months ago

        @Spitfire3dC
        So the next question may have to be what exactly is the nature of the cesspool we elect representatives to go swim in?

        Is it just a function of the halls of power? Or might it be something endemic to us all that is filling the cesspool?

        The most annoying problems tend to be those we cannot just say, “That’s your problem. Go get it fixed!”

        Like it or not, the freedoms we take for granted come with responsibilities. One may be working to drain the cesspool rather than just try to compartmentalize it within the halls of power.

        We could drain this if we wanted to. But if we did we would have to find something new to complain about!

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      • spitfire3dc 10 months ago

        @griz Idealism is a wonderful thing. Its a shame it doesn’t get reinforced through productive accomplishment enough to culminate in improvements over time.

        OK, so we drain the cesspool. Where does the muck go? Right back into the greater pool. Maybe a little less intense, but you spread manure over a farm field it still stinks.

        The fix is to replace political talk with straight talk. We can’t fix what we don’t acknowledge. Unfortunately, most prefer to ignore realities and politicians capitalize on the more simple minded by making empty promises. The problem is really not the politicians. Its the people who elect them for the wrong reasons. Finding the right reasons is too hard. But good things usually are.

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      • Author
        griz 10 months ago

        @Spitfire3dC
        Ideals are good things to reach for. We may not fully reach them 9 times out of 10.
        But that one time we actually reach them can make those other 9 tries very worthwhile.

        The first step would seem to be stopp filling the cesspool! The average Joe or Josephine in daily life engages in a lot of crooked self-serving talk versus straight talk. But part of our tolerance of it in politics, might come from so many people still engaging it over others in their own life.
        We find this repugnant as we should ( particularly if we find ourselves on the losing end of it), and complaining about it in the public light can easily become our distraction from ferreting it our in our own life.

        If enough people did this in their own life the tolerance/desperate need for it in our elected representatives would dry up.

        Yeah it would probably really stink for a while. But all we would have to do is get it right once, and the transformation would be well worth all the times we didn’t get it right.

        That formerly stinky field grows a lot of really nice veggies to put on our burgers and in our salads!

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  3. ladybarbara 10 months ago

    I live in a world where most people are not like me —– short in stature.

    Most other people are tall enough to reach that elusive second shelf in the kitchen cabinets. They know what is on top of the refrigerator. They can reach the top shelves of the grocery store. Those are the people who are not like me. I can see right up their nose and know when they are not wearing underarm deodorant. I am the first to know when one of them farts.

    I am forced to get along with them. They are so much taller than me. It is wise to get along with them, in case I need to ask for them to reach something on a high shelf.

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  4. immortal_pirate 10 months ago

    Doubtful…

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  5. immortal_pirate 10 months ago

    Respect is EARNED…if other people want to act like reasonable and responsible individuals, then they have my respect. If they want to act like animal, then I will treat them as such.
    Most people aren’t like me, because they are mortals…

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    • ladybarbara 10 months ago

      @immortal_pirate —– Which is why I act like a reasonable, responsible, and respectful person around you. I try not to act like an animal.

      ( I never know when I may need to be in your good graces, in case I need for you to reach for something from the top shelf, or from the mysterious top of the refrigerator.)

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    • Author
      griz 10 months ago

      @immortal_pirate
      So then I guess it becomes a question of whether “being like me” is a requirement for respect or not.
      And is that “respect” or something else?

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  6. Weenis 10 months ago

    I’ve never met a liberal I respected.

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    • Author
      griz 10 months ago

      @Weenis
      How about loved, as God commands?

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      • Weenis 10 months ago

        @griz

        I do love my neighbor. So much so that I’m willing to anger them by passing laws or discussing uncomfortable issues with them.

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      • Author
        griz 10 months ago

        @Weenis
        Tyrannical love is a bizarre concept!

        (Blessings with a brick, my bizarre friend!)

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      • Weenis 10 months ago

        @griz

        Isn’t that how God saves us? We’re happy in our sin, hating and at war with a holy God, and he changes our heart?

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      • Author
        griz 10 months ago

        @Weenis
        Yes.

        But by what knowledge can we claim to know when and how this will happen in a given person?

        For God so judged the world that He Sent His only begotten son . . .? By what wisdom could we claim this to be our model?

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      • Weenis 10 months ago

        @griz

        I never claimed to know when it happens. The Bible says how it happens, and that it’s through regeneration. Removing a heart of stone and putting in a heart of flesh.

        For God so judged the world that He Sent His only begotten son . . .? By what wisdom could we claim this to be our model?

        More of your goofy tangential babbling.

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      • Author
        griz 10 months ago

        @Weenis
        I tried to make sure my tangents always have a purpose.

        So God talks about the importance of His church in this process.

        Do you think we ought to be excluding people based just on what we think we know about their heart?

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      • Weenis 10 months ago

        @griz

        Do you think we ought to be excluding people based just on what we think we know about their heart?

        No.

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      • Author
        griz 10 months ago

        @Weenis
        Not even in political games?

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      • Weenis 10 months ago

        @griz

        I don’t know what “political games” you’re referring to. But if it’s a reference to politics in general, then there isn’t any judging of hearts. All politics is based on actions and what people say. There’s very little room for assumption.

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      • Author
        griz 10 months ago

        @Weenis
        I don’t disagree.

        But there does seem to be a lot of room for judging, in the mode of tribal warfare that rips Nations apart.

        Did you manage to think of any one-party systems of governing that proved stable and non tyrannical over time?

        I think the two party push and pull system is necessary. Which would mean even if one hates the other side, they serve a purpose.

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  7. five2one 10 months ago

    Democrats honor each other, to varying degree, depending on what people have said and done. And same for Republicans.

    Democrats are not where the big evil is now. The great snake, the spirit of darkness is corralled up in the far right in America now.

    Expect them to act as they are: brutal, vicious, evil at heart.

    They know their time is short.

    Examine how badly age has treated them and take that as a cue that they are on the road out.

    Trump can be a blowhard all he wants to be, but as he used to call women he disliked “ugly” — in all honesty have ever seen a more ugly person then Trump?

    He has bonded deeply with the evil spirit which lives in him.

    He is not real, just a guise, disguise covering that darkness.

    Anyway, I won’t salute darkness as it dies. It never was anything. What does it do? It hurts, demands, brutalizes, murders, rails, glorifies the evil in them.

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    • Author
      griz 10 months ago

      @five2one
      The spirit is perhaps in what caused the raising of the banner, rather than in the banner raised.

      Very few people do something feeling that it is wrong. People do things either because they feel they are right or that they have no choice.

      Tribal warfare, and decisions that don’t respect the concerns of the other side, are what led to this.

      The Liberals moved too quickly and with too much (ahem!) gay abandon! The conservatives, who are the stabilizing force in any venture, couldn’t keep up in felt totally disenfranchised.

      So Trump is their desperate version of giving them a dose of their own medicine back. Don’t you think it rips their skin off to talk about lacking morals on the left, while following a messiah apparently bereft of them? But the Liberals moving too fast drove them to this. Liberals are the push to chaos, conservatives the pull back to stability. This Dynamic is what kept America stable, up to the point of infection by postmodern neo-Marxism and the empowering of tribal identity politics.

      Can you see how this insane extremist tribal warfare can only be toxic to the nation? The family is gleefully tearing itself apart, well the instigators of this toxin sit back and smile.

      Even you are going whole-hog after the fluttering banner, wow totally overlooking the spirit that led to its raising.

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  8. immortal_pirate 10 months ago

    Yep…

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    • Author
      griz 10 months ago

      @immortal_pirate
      For me it is less the race than the spirit it defaults to.

      That way I can hate the evil while loving the people. (And I believe there scriptural precedent for this).

      What did you think about the synopsis of processes and events leading up to today’s
      situation ?

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  9. luftballooneyegouge 10 months ago

    I reeeeeeespect allllllll people, with a dash of ‘dis-‘ for flavor.

    https://youtu.be/xnCaFTaDGkc

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    • Author
      griz 10 months ago

      @luftballooneyegouge
      Respecting the person doesn’t mean having to respect everything they might choose to do.

      For then we can only respect a perfect person, meaning self-respect was out of the picture.

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  10. barryjack 9 months ago

    I try. Most of the folks I associate with are probably opposite of me, politically speaking. Just yesterday, there was a question thrown my way about something, but it was civil and calm and ok. I’m not one that thinks that just because so and so is like that…anyone that may associate the same with them is just as bad as they are. That being said, stuff can be uncomfortable, but if I associate with them, I care about more than just their politics. I try to listen, and try to be understanding. I don’t have to agree with someone to have some respect for them.

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    • Author
      griz 9 months ago

      @barryjack
      a lot of good thought there imho.

      Like you I enjoy intellectual discussions with people of differing beliefs.

      I started a thread the other day about ideogical possession that you might enjoy reading.

      One of the symptoms was a constant need to self-justify that superseded any meaningful engagement with people

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