I know! Dangerous ground these days to tread upon. But bear with me before passing judgement.

Capitalism is just “what emerges” (arguably “organically”), when freed adult individuals practicing competency interact together. No one person — or even group of people — hold the keys or patent to it.
That is not saying it cannot become corrupted if the individuals making up the society start “divorcing” themselves from it live in their own little pocket-realities (with “greed” being one of them; fear another; selfishness another). Not allowing this to happen was a wisdom Humans knew 12-15,000 years ago (the ancient Egyptians) but we’ve apparently “divorced” ourselves from and forgotten it unto endlessly repeating it! (It’s found in the purely graphic representations (hieroglyphs) depicting the ancient narrative of Osiris, Isis, Horus and Seth and the “creation myth” of society/culture)

And the reason why utopian collectivist, communist and social reconstructionist experiments always fail is that they are contrived and not naturally and organically emergent.
(With the family structure arguably having aspects of these paradigms, but only because they deal with incompetent children. They do not scale well at all into adult competency structures).

Your thoughts on this are welcomed and encouraged.
Just remember that I am not interested in the pop-“culture wars” or bipartisan tribalism (particularly politics). My main interest is the best Truth we can currently explore/articulate.
And that seems to be a wise blending of both conservatism behaviors and progressive behaviors. No one “has the keys” to the better future.




46 Comments

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  1. immortal_pirate 7 months ago

    As with all things…balance.

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  2. Jear77 7 months ago

    Societal athiesm is also an emergent phenomenon. Does that make it equally as good in your eyes?

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    • Author
      griz 6 months ago

      @Jear77
      But it is not.
      It is more reactive (and to the negative) than naturally occurring.
      It’s not even a proactive enterprise — as in it would have no meaning if what it was negatively reacting to wasn’t there.

      It is the celebration . . . of what one is . . . not. And with this far too often . . . taken to extremes that actually mimic the religious process it claims to be reacting against. It is more of a feedback loop.

      It is so far removed from the scientific defintion of “emergent phenomena” that it doesn’t even belong in the same dimension.

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz you see it as reaction… but what if my argument is true? By your definition it would have to be seen as a good thing because society emerged out of the concept of the divine on its own.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        How is it NOT reaction?

        There seems zero pro-activity about it. It is defined by, and seems to exist, totally in the negative.
        And it fails in an oxymoronic way in that it has strong tendency to become just a variant of what it is defined as being the absence of (religious process).
        Oh, it also relies heavily on poor understanding of the God Concept in psychological terms.

        Also, let’s keep in mind this thread is about capitalism and other positive emergent phenomena. Atheism doesn’t seem even remotely related.

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz zero pro-actvity towards…what? “It” it undefined there. Also i have no idea what pro activities are. You make up terms and don’t define them.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        I said “about” not “towards”.
        “It” relates to the reactionary paradigm you were proposing.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        I forgot not everyone is as intellectually curious as I am. I tend to look up terms I’m not totally familiar with .
        “Emergent phenomenon” has specific definition within the fields of science, philosophy, systems theory.

        Let’s remember Jear that we were talking about capitalism (which upon further reflection I would specify as free-market capitalism), not atheism.

        Remember, we were currently talking free-market capitalism.

        It I made no such supposition of emergence (another scientific term) about either theism or atheism .
        (Although it possible could be said about belief in Transcendent Ideal. That seems to walk hand-in-hand, trans-temporally and across culture as an emergent phenomena of conscious awareness. But really, that was not the thread I was wishing to explore with this question).

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz if i’m interested in a topic, i’ll research. If not, i’ll let others do the work.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        It’s problematic to not want to understand something, but to want to complain about it.

        Others will not always come to blow our nose and wipe our ass for us. Some things we need to learn to do ourselves or risk being increasingly (and dependently) miserable.

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz if you’re going to refrence something, please provide link(s) to eliminate confusing terms/ provide definitions, add context and clarity. It saves the back and forth, and saves you time, effort, and headache. Also, it allows you to be briefer.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        Do we really need the internet to tell us the folly in complaining about something that we don’t understand, don’t wish to understand, and actively resist all attempts to understand?

        Remember that rather than site links I tend to study them and offer a summary; but with enough information that anyone who wishes can look them up.

        I cannot ever recall you wishing to. So try not to ask me for things that you will never use.

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz really? Who does (or has done) research for a living? Me.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        I found a lot more time to research and understand things better . . . Once I stopped complaining about how things were and looking for someone to blame. That actually takes a lot of time and energy to maintain that mindset.

        And with better understanding of things comes more options for moving forward, in doing so with less wasted effort.

        So then you have even more time to research and understand things better!

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz that goes back to the statement that there are certain things that shouldn’t be possible to exist in any iteration, but still somehow do. You say god is all powerful? Ok do something about these things. You say god is all knowing and outside of time? Ok, prevent them to begin with. Since neither of these things happen, fuck you.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        This is more about you in this moment.

        And you expend a LOT of energy complaining about the Manifest nature of reality and looking for someone to blame.

        If you got a handle on this you would find yourself with a lot more time and energy to do things with a lot more meaning.

        And even if it amounts to nothing in the million year time span, science already knows that the serotonin response in our brain is keyed off of meaning.
        With every bit that you find, the better regulated emotions become, and you become a bit more effective in everything you do.

        The caution is that the reverse is also true. This isn’t high in the sky Jear.

        This is Behavioral Science.

        And no I won’t give you a link. If you’re curious look it up. Because in doing so (without an agenda) will generate a bit of meaning in your life.

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz you’re right, but not the way you think… it’s about the belief in a god that created evil, a god that allows – even to some extent encourages horrendous crimes to take place (see the old testament) instead of preventing them, a god that claims that there’s a plan for everyone’s life that always ends in heartache, sickness and death.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        Forget about God for the moment.

        You allow evil. ( and then would project it upon the Everything-Else)

        Intentionally destroying something beautiful for no greater purpose, is evil.

        So what is it you think you are doing to yourself, if not this?

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz not so! Do i see arsonists, thieves, rapists, murderers? Many of the things outside those types of things that fall under the category of “Sin” are things that are things that are stupid. They also may be hurtful, but even these types of things are basically no one’s business… including god, if it exists: Pride: “big headedness” may cause people not to listen, or see the big picture… but for something like that only hurts themselves. Sexual immortality: who ar you or i or even god to tell anyone what they are forbidden from doing in the privacy of their bedroom, so long as it’s done with consent (not too young or druggrd up) and precautions are taken against disease/ unwanted pregnancy… hands off!

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        But do you see yourself and what you’re doing that is so evil?

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz am i a thief, muderer, arsonist, or someone who uses force, drugs, or coercion to obtain sex? Actually, no, don’t answer that, you’d likely go with the bible’s standard. To miss the mark in one aspect is to miss the mark in all. Unless I am one of those above categories, no I can’t consider myself evil. Now mind you, I’m not good, as i’m all over the place, I make plenty of mistakes. I’d say I’m more like a real world version of the D&D alignment chaotic neutral.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        Are you destroying something beautiful just to make a statement against reality?

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz it’s simply part of the type of chaos that surrounds me, combined with the universe’s natural entropy. It’s what my parents term a force of nature, not something i can change. Trying only makes things worse.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        Chaos is out there. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing because that is where potential is. But it needs to be balanced with order so it doesn’t consume you.

        You exist because for a Time, entropy is forestalled. It tries to claim your body but in your lifetime already every cell in your body has been replaced at least three times. Yes the part of you that is the proof against entropy, your Living spirit, remains.

        And you can use that to create all sorts of things that help forestall the entropy and make the future a brighter one.
        If you don’t believe this is a meaningful thing to do, why do you still eat? That staves off the natural entropy at work in your physical body that houses your Living spirit.

        Or you can pout and be resentful and crave the dissolution.

        So much so that you will sell everything that is important and endurable about you, to be the active agent of dissolution in the world.
        Starting with your own internal world.
        And then spreading to the world of those you love.

        Every time you make a bad moral decision you bring everything and everyone one step closer to the dissolution. And for what purpose?
        Just so you can pout about how meaningless things are?

        Get a clue my friend! You don’t get to pout about the meaninglessness that you have freely chosen to be an active agent of!

        You desperately need to perform some small meaningful task in your life. 6 something that you can do today.

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz actually that’s not quite true. Entropy isn’t necessarily forestalled. At first in healthy people, your body overcomes it by growing. However this is a fickle thing. It doesn’t take much to tult the balance toward entropy in living systems, building up in the form of free radicals, damaged DNA, diseases. At some point it overcomes the ability of the body’s cells to repair, causing cascading failures.
        In regards to morality, entropy, and disease, science shows you wrong: bad moral decisions, “sin” in and of itself can cause no disease by itself. No attitude of pride, no theft, no disrespect or sassing your parents, no fornication, no idolatry, no killing (note, not murder) will in and of itself – separated from any & all other factors can or will be able to cause an increase in disease or entropy. A pattern of such things, perhaps.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        It’s enough true for the analogy to stand.

        Unless there is some process at work . . . that needs to “be an agent of dissolution”.

        I would assert that a “successful life*” is the perfect proof against the fear of death/dissolution.

        *with “success” likely not measured by the callow superficial and temporary terms and standards the masses seem to keep falling back on.

        The “science” that proves “right and wrong” could be likened to evolution, if one is deathly allergic to the metaphor of “the Divine”.
        A lifestyle that actively sabotages the psyche, isolates, and creates abundant excuses why one cannot fully engage life, WILL be selected against. In evolution’s view, it is “sinful” and can “only lead to death”.

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz I have a feeling that metaphor is all it is, an analogy that is meaningless.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        The human brain functions off of metaphor and analogy. Manifest physical reality is just so “high resolution” that if we could not reduce it to “thumbnails” of metaphor and analogy, we would go insane; burning up a day’s worth of energy resources just to fully take in each moment.

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz Or we would simply adapt to the higher input. It might take awhile, such as if a person owned a camera with too low a resolution would be replaced or a cable that can’t handle the data would be replaced and/ or upgraded until it could. Similarly, if people were permanently bereft of the ability to use analogies, we would adapt to compensate. Maybe many people would die in the process, but a few would find the resources to do so and pass that ability onto future generations.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        Law of Diminishing Returns.

        We can certainly try to push the boundaries. Even the ancient Native Shamanism I studied intently for decades spoke of the immense value of “expanded awareness”.
        But physical “power sources” were insufficient to power it.

        The Bible says something similar, in it’s own way. Any “super-power” beyond “the common” . . . needs a power-source beyond the common.

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz Easily overcame. Internal AI, a hard drive that we upload to the cloud so we have more at our fingertips. Everyone is a cyborg having access to everything everyone else has experienced, so the “diminishing returns” mean nothing. And we currently have the technology for it… it’s just that people are too afraid of the “mark”

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        Do you have any links to this successfully being done?

        Consider also that one of the major hurdles AI still cannot redress is that it cannot see things metaphorically. It can sort magnitudes more information quicker than the human mind, but what meaning to attach to each element?

        Also, what of cautionary tales like SkyNet and the Matrix? It’s arrogant to think that we can create “thinking machines” superior to ourselves yet retain control over them.

        Remember, I’m talking real-time issues in the world we face today. Whereas you seem to keep lapsing into thinking about thing as if they are a RPG.

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz no. Technology don’t equate to implementation. There ARE similar cases (if slightly different) where we *are* currently cyborgs, however. The insulin pump is essentially an external sourced brain for insulin delivery and robotic limbs that operae more or less by themselves. The problem is that they’re susceptible to hacking. And people *have* gotten the exact technology what will eventually become the mark implanted into them, and *nothing* happened to them.

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      • Author
        griz 6 months ago

        @Jear77
        I take comfort in the fact that our species’ hallmark is that we never go too far with an idea or let our pride run away with us unto regrettable folly!

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      • Jear77 6 months ago

        @griz sarcasm.

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  3. five2one 6 months ago

    Communism, like Nazism, was born in the ashes of the “Holy” “Roman” “Empire”. I dare quote poor Voltaire on this, for he was quite correct, ‘it was neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire’. It was German.

    I laugh, at all of this.

    But, I have a dark sense of humor.

    I have the key to a better future, because I live and work with angels of God.

    They are not human mortals.

    I receive my paycheck from angels of God. So, what to humans is very unreal, to me, is very real.

    I suppose, I can say, ‘I wish that this was immediate understanding to me’, and ‘this was quite easy for me to believe’. I believe it. And, they could have presented it to me in a way which was more believable for me to consume. But, they did not. And, I did not wish for that.

    My friends are capable of being many humans at once. They are invisible, and can manipulate reality as if it were a lucid dream of theirs.

    My friends are the ones who drag people off after they die. To doom, or reward.

    Capitalism, democracy….

    The number of the beast is not a single man’s number. Can people not look up matters in a lexicon? Are they incapable of doing so? What man has seven heads and ten horns, where seven heads represent ten world ruling kingdoms?

    I have no power in and of my own self, but whatever I see my father do, I also do.

    The beast is already taking down ‘Babylon’. The investigations and disclosures are happening across the world. But, the current ‘superpower’ is leading it, and will end to its’ demise.

    In one day.

    For the “Catholic” powers, sex crimes, and the conspiracies covering it up. For the “Protestant” powers, their trust and worship in President Trump.

    If you think I am not sitting here, laughing it up — believe me when I say, everyday that I do not get at least three ‘muahaha’s’ is a day I do not live. And, every single day I get three and more ‘muahaha’s’.

    Indeed, I write as much as I do, knowing that what I am saying is ignored. I write these things so the future will see it. I document it to burn them.

    To kill them.

    Communism, Islam, Fascism of so many stripes… these are my real enemies. America is the very head of the beast which was killed, but is alive again. Which causes the whole world to worship after the beast.

    And, America will come after me, and my friends.

    So, I document this, for that very reason.

    Something they will not pay attention to, until “President Trump” and his followers, and the Vatican, are taken down. Something which seems impossible now. But, which will happen. Muahahaha.

    Then, they will come after Us. Us, with a capital “U”.

    “Who is like the Beast? Who can make war with it?”

    We can.

    Hahahaha…. :-)

    When NLP, ‘natural language processing’, was invented, I was there. I sold the software to the government to do this. I invented it. BBN is a fraud.

    The companies I created from this work are now multi-billionare companies. And I did this to take them all down.

    Hahahaha.

    I do this for fun.

    This is my idea of a good time.

    The people they have entrusted with this work are my own.

    While I dislike Islam and Communism, I will take them down by taking down Democracies and Western Civilization.

    Muahahaha.

    Because they are sinful sons of bitches who well deserve this.

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    • Author
      griz 6 months ago

      @five2one
      I don’t think any of that defeats the supposition that free-market capitalism tends to be the structure that emerges when a society (arguably following the tenets of Christ) grants people the right to exercise freedom and agency.

      And for comparison, most other societal structures — particularly fascism, marxism, communism — only exist when allowed exercise of freedom and agency is reduced or denied.

      I would advance the supposition that this is why free-market capitalism is an emergent phenomena of Humanity and other societal styles don’t appear to be.

      Yes, I know that some day the world of flesh will dissolve like snow and be no more. But I don’t think God fucks around with meaningless things. Pie-in-the-sky can be nice to think about. But there’s some meat here on the plate for the competent to chew on — or look for some easier milk.

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      • five2one 5 months ago

        @griz “Yes, I know that some day the world of flesh will dissolve like snow and be no more. But I don’t think God fucks around with meaningless things. Pie-in-the-sky can be nice to think about. But there’s some meat here on the plate for the competent to chew on — or look for some easier milk.”

        My understanding is God is going to build on what we have, and work from there. I think, in terms of economies, spiritual economies are useful here, and free trade, protected speech.

        Viability and capacity for it, via internet, mass communications.

        The best, the most weighty, the most worthy, in this way, can rise to the top. But, there is an entirely new social strata created, in this way. After all, what is truly exclusive and elite, can be hard to find.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @five2one
        What grounds there to support the belief that the Eternal will map onto the temporal rather than vice versa?

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      • five2one 5 months ago

        @griz “What grounds there to support the belief that the Eternal will map onto the temporal rather than vice versa?”

        Good question.

        Well, one…. I have an ‘ace in the hole’, obviously…

        Otherwise, you can look to Revelation 20, where the thousand year reign happens, which is also discussed in Psalms, and other scripture.

        Revelation 11 says the Kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of God and his Christ. At the last trumpet.

        From revelation 11 to 20, you see Jesus and the Heavenly armies on the ground. This is mentioned just in whispers of metaphors. But, it is there. And, it is spoken of, Jesus saying he will come with the angels of his father’s.

        After the last judgment, then the heavenly city descends from Heaven. Revelation 21. So, the heavenly comes to earth. But, some vestige of it had been there through the thousand year reign, already.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @five2one
        As I’ve noted before, and with Scriptural backing, prophecy seems to only be evident in hindsight.
        Even to those who have devoted their life to trying to see it in foresight.

        So the Kingdom of God exists in this moment, as Free Will creates “that which is good” out of the chaos. Trying to jump ahead in the game is for those either far wiser or far more foolish than I.
        (With discernment evident in the motivation, manifest over time).

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      • five2one 5 months ago

        @griz Well, we each have different sense of time.

        The sixth sense.

        So, you and me, have had moments in time.

        We are close u & me. U know. Do u remember my face?

        I remembered yours…

        We are old souls.

        What is your secret name? From your past life?

        Atom?

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @five2one
        More like Hadron; a carrier of the Strong Force.

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      • five2one 5 months ago

        @griz Nice.

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      • five2one 5 months ago

        @griz i am the pull. A paradox. Perfect inperfect. Black hole.

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      • five2one 4 months ago

        @griz I am the balance between the two sides of the force; because I am the force.

        A paradox, a black hole.

        My birthfather was me, my wife was my mother.

        Jim and Pam.

        No joke…

        You know we play poker this way.

        This was my winning hand against Daniel, now of China…

        Two jokers, ace of spades, king of clubs, queen of hearts…

        :-)

        Yes. I cheated. By allowing jokers in the deck. But, he agreed to that.

        Good friend.

        We have played a lot of cards, but I look out for him.

        I would guess you are Adam, an angel, or someone famous of great chi, of the past and future… seen your face before, my friend.

        But, who are you. Tell me more. :-)

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