Should we be so inured to them that we no longer feel horror and dread at its evils?




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  1. griz 3 months ago

    Only if we choose to.

    The problem is that both personally, and in what we are choosing to do with ourselves in this moment, we can ourselves be one of the dread horrible evils in the world. Intrinsically and extrinsically.

    But it’s far easier on the ego to believe that all of these things exist “elsewhere”. And taken to the psychological extreme, this very easily becomes their being concentrated in the ultimate epitome of “elsewhere”: God or “manifest existential reality”.

    The coming to terms with evil and horror, begins in diving deep and discovering that these things exist in you. Solzhenitsyn observed that the line (the battle-line per se) between good and evil runs right through the middle of every human soul. Both Jung and Freud talked about “integration of the shadow” in one’s own personal psyche. Heidegger spoke of similar integration. In his own unique way, so did Nietzsche.

    When one can identify and own and then even start to master the evil and horror within themselves, it becomes a lot easier to not be “so injured” by the same thing in the outside world.
    It’s akin to a psychological (or spiritual?) immune system. Once you’ve “had the bug” and your system found a defense against it, you develop an immunity to that “bug”.

    If it’s particularly noxious it can still cause mild symptoms. If it mutates it can still put you down. But you survive, where someone without developed immunity will die.

    We cannot hermetically seal ourselves away from the malicious evil and horrors in the world. Mythologically, even in a walled Garden of Perfection, a Serpent can still get in. And the best way to handle it, is to have some experience at handling the bag of serpents we all can be when the right (or wrong!) spirit moves us!

    Reply

    • Author
      Jear77 3 months ago

      @griz hm.
      if you’re “in the world, but not of it,” that you’re “passing through” as the hymn states, that you’re really not a citizen of the earth, that means you’re effectively saying that nothing can happen to you ultimately, therefore you really shouldn’t give a rat’s ass about what happens here, and should feel separeted from it as much as possible.

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      • griz 3 months ago

        @Jear77
        The problem with a mindset of finding fault, is that it invalidates the finding of good.
        I’m a citizen of God’s kingdom; but that kingdom is currently manifest here on Earth so of course I’m “of” that citizenry enjoying the perks of love, joy, peace, and purpose greater than self that are markers of that kingdom: yet I still exist in and interact with this physical place.

        And while I work and live and move through the kingdom who’s markers are angst, horror, meaninglessness, malice, treachery etc, that is not my “citizenship” so I don’t have to exist under those “rules of engagement” if I don’t want to.
        (And from the sounds of it, you could really benefit from not having to interpret and live everything by these “rules of citizenry” either!).

        The processes of interpretation/understanding you are using to fuel your frustration and anger are more of man-made religion (aka, OF the world) than of the Spirit. It essentially creates a fallacy loop where end dictates the mean which is then used to justify the end that seeks the means to justify the end.
        It’s no wonder you don’t feel like you have any time or energy for more meaningful pursuits.

        Of course things in the world can affect me. But “I have the power” to not let them have lasting effect on me. (A bit of “Silver Surfer”-type super-power!). Nothing can have lasting effect on me unto robbing me of my “kingdom citizenry” (and perks), save I allow it.

        And this physical life is like a training grounds where I get to learn just what of this world I don’t have to let have lasting effect on me. (And perhaps, what other “powers” might come with “kingdom citizenry”!).

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 months ago

        @griz no matter one’s attitude, things affect people LOTS more than they let on. They just don’t discuss it because it’s impolite and there’s nothing the other person can do about it anyways, so they bottle it up inside. And those things that you let slide, that you think you chose to let go of may one day come back and bite you in the ass. Those people who you forgave, betray you once again. That area that you thought was so firmly in the past, rears its ugly head.

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      • griz 3 months ago

        @Jear77
        Our only true freedom is to control how we handle things. We can choose to hold our tongue, or reserve judgement, to walk away, to blow up, to bottle up, or to play victim-hood Olympics as if we’re going for gold.

        As I’ve said before, forgiveness doesn’t equal naivety nor an identity of pending victim-hood. There are wise ways to exercise it — and even instructions AND example to that end!

        And the result manifest in my life seems to be successfully navigating between being an easy mark, and becoming so isolated and cynical everything spins negative and meaningless with most effort expended unto the worsening of that mental attitude/state.

        Essentially, I can spiritually “afford” to trust to a greater degree than most, but know the point to walk away. I learn and benefit, and so do people around me who cannot believe someone in this world will both trust then, and be trustworthy towards them.

        I know who we are as a species, because I can afford to know who I am. (Integration of the shadow)
        And I know how to heal if I get it wrong.

        And this is practically indistinguishable . . . from having a superpower everyone else lacks!

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 months ago

        @griz really? “How we respond?” That’s a crock. Do you think anyone would respond to life… by getting old, by dying (unless they’re suicidal). No. Don’t try to feed me nonsense. I can see right through it.

        Reply

      • griz 3 months ago

        @Jear77
        “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.”

        You cannot see past the inability to discern between the things you can and cannot change.

        To use the things you cannot change as constant excuse to not change the things you can, is dopey.

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 months ago

        @griz the serenity prayer can’t do jack especially if a person won’t accept the things they can’t change. And if god exists and is all powerful shouldn’t the following come to mind? “i can do ALL things.” Not some things. Not most things. Not many things. All. Anything less makes god a liar.

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  2. immortal_pirate 3 months ago

    Know thy enemy and know thy self…

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    • Author
      Jear77 3 months ago

      @immortal_pirate What if the self IS the enemy, ultimately?

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      • griz 3 months ago

        @Jear77
        Then defeat it with the hero that is you.

        You are capable of both.

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 months ago

        @griz that might work if you had all the time in the world. But we both know we don’t.

        Reply

      • griz 3 months ago

        @Jear77
        Perhaps start by recovering all the time spent weaving excuses and defenestrations?

        There is more than enough time in life to get the things done that need to be done.
        (Or that have been set aside specifically for YOU to do!).

        Reply

      • Author
        Jear77 3 months ago

        @griz all or nothing.

        Reply

      • immortal_pirate 3 months ago

        @Jear77 You are your own worst enemy…

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 months ago

        @immortal_pirate so is everyone, ironically enough… Next?

        Reply

      • griz 3 months ago

        @Jear77
        There are two problems with this
        1) looking for it in the wrong places and
        2) considering that “nothing found” as evidence there is nothing to find if one bothers to look in the right places.

        It’s a high-level cop-out strategy.

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 months ago

        @griz all would include the ability to find by means that are independently verifiable, recordable, testable .

        Reply

      • griz 3 months ago

        @Jear77
        We’ve already covered that territory.

        Empiricism only goes so far.
        Even the scientists that earn their living from it acknowledge this.

        Is Jear wiser than them?

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 months ago

        @griz perhaps i am. Or perhaps what you consider to be among those categories are more provable than you think. empiricism is the only way to do most things. And the few things that don’t exactly fall into those categories… matter nothing because they piggyback onto things that ARE. Even the bible/ a famous song says this “they will know you are Christians by your love.” Love is action/ words, and notable by the loved one’s physical presence, therefore able to be recorded by witnesses and video. In all other aspects of one’s life one needs proof, authortative witnesses, or at least a good track record. Employers (basically) don’t hire people without having someone vouch for them. You wouldn’t go to a restaurant or entertainment venue without knowing what to expect. In this day and age, you shouldn’t associate/ date people without having at keast “googled” them, because your association can cause trouble later on. You can’t be a prosecutor and expect a suspect to be charged with a crime where the charges will stick without evidence. Yet if all the “evidence” of a subject were presented for whatever there is that people believe in (be it for god(s), ghosts, mysterious planets or additional suns, aliens, crypozoological animals, or conspiracy theories) were presented to a person without context of what one is talking about, you’d be looked at as if you’re crazy. And you really don’t need a book to tell you not to hurt others. So there’s literally nothing i gain to being open to things that aren’t verifiable, recordable, or testable in some way, shape, or form.

        Reply

      • griz 2 months ago

        @Jear77
        It’s interesting that most people of insight and wisdom from history, have not fancied themselves wiser than most.

        I would challenge you to prove that empiricism is the only way to do most things. Please start with the things deemed by most to be the most meaningful and enduring in life.

        You could follow this up with an expose on exactly how empiricism assigns value in the first place.
        It can show what people assess as valuable, and try to assign correlation.
        But value is circumstantial. And empiricism is about that which is not circumstantial.

        Action is given as one of the indicators of love. But in itself is no proof of it as actions that would seem loving in the moment (like a toxic mother spoiling her child) are actually hateful in the long run.

        So empiricism has no traction here until a long a long time after the causal event is irreversible.

        I acknowledge the rest of what you wrote but it is in exactly the same thread.

        To which I would reply yet again that empiricism is a very fine tool; but a terrible Almighty.

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 months ago

        @griz we’ll only know after we die, as that will prove one of us right and one of us wrong… and i’m perfectly fine with waiting until then. Untik then empiricism is the only way I will deal with things. And at that point que sera, sera!

        Reply

      • griz 2 months ago

        @Jear77
        By what proof or authority would you assert that you can only know this after you die?

        I have abundant and growing confirmation of what I assert. But as I’ve said a LONG time ago: I’ve been willing to go to where such evidence can be found, whereas you’ve used up most of your energy trying to justify why you shouldn’t have to go to where it can be found.

        There is zero surprise as why one of us found it, and the other didn’t. And even in this, we have confirmation that “God” (whatever that may or may not be), exercises respect for our exercise of agency.

        And this in a way, may be a sort of “test”.

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 months ago

        @griz tou are a witness to yourself. As you have pointed out we can’t experience the sum total of reality… if this is the case, what if this witness you are bringing to the table is flawed, skewed, or somehow wrong in some way that changes everything if the error came to light?

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      • griz 2 months ago

        @Jear77
        Your “all-or-nothing” shackle blinds you.

        What if what one brings to the table is right?

        Living in fear is a miserable hell. Whether fear of action, fear of free thought, fear of free choice, fear of responsibility, fear of consequence.

        It is only by carrying a load, that we become able to carry greater loads.

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 months ago

        @griz you say you can’t experience ultimate reality because your senses won’t allow it… yet somehow you are able to tap into something beyond ultimate reality? Seems you can’t keep your facts straight.

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      • griz 2 months ago

        @Jear77
        Again the All or Nothing mentality blinds you.

        I have never said or implied that I experience Ultimate Reality.

        Only that I seem to interact on numerous occasions with something beyond what most people would consider standard (empirically proven) reality. And that there are others who report the same, and report similar experience with it. And this is true trans temporarily and trans culturally with groups isolated from one another.

        Which would seem to imply it is something “transcendent”. And who can say exactly what that does or does not mean?
        Certainly not science.

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 months ago

        @griz yet you claim to have knowledge of something unproven by science. Are you sure you’re simply not criminally insane, delusional, or trying to convince yourself something exists that does not?

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      • griz 2 months ago

        @Jear77
        Actually so do you. Science has no grasp on values ethics or evidently your negative emotions my friend! If it did you would do something empirically effective about them. Today.
        (For science tells you in no uncertain terms that they are bad for you).

        So science has no Mastery over them, yet you “know” them as such a fundamental level, they frame your entire life.

        There are solutions and solutions that science can measure the results of. Yet you waste your days and nights hunting for excuses why you don’t need to or shouldn’t have to bother looking for them in the places where they exist.

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 months ago

        @griz what if those things are genetic? Maybe they are, in at least part, otherwise we wouldn’t have psychopaths or sociopaths. Or what if some things one experiences are based around being exposed to things that we should not: pollution in the air, water, ground, or even in the very house a person lives? These things can make someone sick and have long-term consequences on one’s health. I stayed in a moldy/ mildewy environment for months. For the last week or so i was there, it was flooded with raw sewage. There have been studies that show exposure to such can cause dementia. Who knows how long it’ll take to remove the side effects from my life.
        I would go one step further: I believe there to be social pollution: people who are toxic in one’s life. My brother is such a person due to so many factors and living with my parents and I. If he doesn’t end up in prison with his upcoming court case, I’ll be surprised.

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      • griz 2 months ago

        @Jear77
        One really needs to learn how to reign in the zeal to dodge personal responsibility for oneself that they spend their days and nights looking for anything and everything else to blame.

        I just ran into a person today who wanted to blame quantum mechanics in the brain for their problems.

        Ultimately what happens is what happens. We have no control over that. But we do have considerable control over how we respond to the natural effects of what has happened.

        Failure to make the absolute most of one’s life because of parents, society, an event, toxic mold, someone forgetting to shovel their walkway, our animal instincts, some congenital or acquired ailment, a “mean God” or even quantum mechanics . . . is just so lame.

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 months ago

        @griz to me it’s infinitely lamer to say such things as

        “god created the universe” instead of looking to science to see how it was created and think how cool it is that science may prove definitel, beyond a shadow of a doubt that some version of it always existed.

        or

        “god is blessing me” when if someone really looks at the situations and traces all the threads back of a person’s life… not a single solitary proof outside of coincidence and hard work and/or lucky genetics.

        It’s far better to live one’s life as if there’s no god than to be worried about the hereafter. By doing so, one can actually make a difference in the real world by doing not sitting on one’s ass and praying about anything. You have faith and prayers in one hand – even the total sum from all believers who lived in the past and who are currently alive today and all eho will live in the future and shit in the other, guesss which will fill up faster?

        Reply

      • griz 2 months ago

        @Jear77
        You’re still stuck in religious thinking.
        Did A Force (or Energy) create the universe, or not?

        That we (science) can catch better glimpses and understandings of it doesn’t change that “something” both made it happen and seems to stand as A Force against entropy. Something we (science) cannot fully fathom back to its absolute origin.

        If you are still “allergic” to the word “God”, then “Life blesses me”. Does it not bless you? Daily? Moment-by-moment?

        And while hard work and proper sacrifices unto The Future don’t come with a guarantee, there remains no better way to go from “nothing” to “something”.

        Do you get the feeling that I “worry about the hereafter”?

        You’re still trying to stand on the very artifacts of religion you hate.

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 months ago

        @griz i would say no. The universe was unable to be created having existed forever. So that eliminates completely the need for something to create it.

        And no life doesn’t bless me; life in its entirety a curse. I am in constant pain,: whether emotional, physical, or social. So is everyone else, but they are simply too busy to realize it. The moment i die, it will be an end to the pains.

        In regards to worry, if you have no worry, why wouldn’t you seek to have more pleasure(s) out of life? A person who isn’t, worried would be free to do literally whatever in pursuit of it and not care of consequences.

        Reply

      • griz 2 months ago

        @Jear77
        So your proposition is that “nothing” caused “everything”? Or more deeply, that the Laws of Theromdynamics (a construct of Human Science you venerate) are nothing?

        So if life in its entirely is a curse, why not change it? Why fight for years to insist you have no power to change it? To change yourself? Why would you crave and desire and like being cursed to such a degree that you would put so much energy into trying to obliterate any reason to follow any other course?

        We come back to the misconception that freedom (from worry in this case) necessitates not taking responsibility for the courses one sets in motion. But this is clearly not the path to freedom; only to more slavery to one’s own feelings and whims. Which then plays into a feeling of slavery to manifest reality.

        Which form a depression-like feedback loop that keeps one from any meaningful and deliberate exercise that could free them from the destructive feed-back loop.

        Many have suffered far more than you and still made something of their lives — something that lasted beyond their physical death unto something worthy of commemoration.

        (Or just to be taken for granted by people addicted to complaining).

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 months ago

        @griz no. Something always existing in some manner needs no source. This is the EXACT same principle you use for god’s existence… I’m simply saying cut out the concept of the divine, the supernatural, that which needs to be worshiped, feared, obeyed.

        In regards to the curse… you yourself have the selfsame surse. As does literally every single person who has ever been in existence and every single person who will be born into it. No amount of change will negate it. No miracle cure exists. Nothing anyone can do will stop it. It’s just that most people are too busy to realize it, too wrapped up in their own lives.

        I am seeing day by day responsibility (just like its brother in arms, competency) is a hoax, a farce, a deception. I tried to be on my own, but no amount of struggle could have prevented me from returning home. I see this daily with my idiot drunkard brother who’s trying to keep himself from prison. I see it in my parent’s situation, between my mom’s failing health, and my father’s inability to keep up with daily stuff because of his unwillingness to get help when it’s obvious it’s not only needed, but that he should have asked a LONG time ago. That sense of responsibility prevented him from asking for the help he desperately needs. So, if responsibility and competency are “all that” there wouldn’t be circumstances like that.

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      • griz 2 months ago

        @Jear77
        The root of the problem is perhaps that your “cutting out of the divine”, is just a re-defining into just a small finite model.
        It’s less that the Divine Transcendent NEEDS to be worshiped (Are you sure you’ve read the Bible??); but that it’s WORTHY of veneration. Let’s not forget just how well the past 190 million years have gone, operating under such a system. And now we get a bit of smarts and a shit-load of arrogance and think that we can in the next Historical nano-second . . . totally re-write this emergent Transcendent moralistic interpretive structure?? Something that Evolution (which selects for successful traits) has keyed into our very brains??
        Give your brains a shake!

        I came across an obscure passage once, I think while exploring a bit of voodoo theory; and something similar when I thought it would be good to understand where satanists were coming from.
        The idea is that if you set out to curse someone (with an “evil spirit” is the understanding) and they have a more powerful spirit already in them not only does the curse “not stick”; it rebounds on the one initiating the curse.

        No, I’m not under any curse. And interestingly enough, because I have chosen not to be — and done what is necessary to make it so.

        But understand that any force that wants to curse you, must first “disable” the more powerful spirit of responsibility and competency.
        Otherwise it’s curses won’t stick and have those so cursed thinking that there is no possible way to live outside the curse.

        And this is Archetypal, showing up independently in MANY different wisdom and spiritual traditions.
        Sorry Jear, but your board-game just isn’t expansive enough.

        And let’s be clear that competency and responsibility don’t by any means negate asking for help when it’s needed. That’s just stubborn bull-headedness.

        Even this ties into the Spiritual journey set out by the Christ paradigm: many things you can become competent and responsible at. But one thing you cannot — and no special shame or guilt because nobody can.
        So competency and responsibility necessitate both recognizing this AND sufficient willingness to do something about it that one will make a “sufficient sacrifice” of stubborn arrogance and egotistic pride to secure it.

        That people fail to make proper sacrifices to escape the curse is by no means any “proof” that proper sacrifices to escape it are not possible. This is just a variant of the post hoc ergo propter hoc logistical fallacy — using the end to prove there is no means to prevent the end.

        Reply

      • Author
        Jear77 2 months ago

        @griz this universe… and any possible other dimensions is all that there is. It’s not a re definition, it’s a simple acknowledgement that the concept of divinity is not only needless, it’s useless, ill-defined, and stupid.
        And i would disagree. I say that any sort of divinity that allows the world to be as it is is not only unworthy of veneration, but has a massive ego to want such, given the world as it is, because it created evil, with the full knowledge of the consequences of such, and not giving scientific proof of its existence. If anything, anyone with a brain should deny its existence, and at every turn point out the logical inconsistencies of those with faith cling to. And on the off chance a deity should exist, because of the recorded actions of it and its followers, regardless of the mythos used, it should be actively fought, denied where possible.
        In regards to curses, there’s this thing calked aging. Unless you live in one of these idyllic places in the mountains of Japan where life has its own slow pace, the diet is mainly vegetables, there are few diseases, the population isn’t mostly eastern religions/ atheist, and everyone stays active, the wear and tear of modern life will eventually start to wear on you. I know you’re an OTR truck driver. There is medical evidence that says you should get up every 15 minutes to walk around. I also would bet you don’t follow a strictly GBOMBS diet (greens/ lettuce/ kale / spinach, beans/ legumes, onions/ garlic/ leeks, mushrooms, berries, seeds / nuts), No meat, No dairy.
        You say this about the person of christ, yet were that selfsame concept of accepting it into one’s life to be applied to Thor (the one from myth, not Marvel comics), the tooth fairy, the “easter bunny,” or Anubis, you’d think the person in question would be insane. So if there’s no scientific proof (outside of religious texts, superstition, urban myths, and fear of the unknown/ death) for any of the world’s approximately 3000 other dieties, and with the advent of new technologies of communication: TV, radio, phone, text message, apps… and probably more to come in the future, i have no qualms about disbelieving because it can’t… won’t be able to communicate with us in ways those who don’t believe, those who have serious questions can get (reasonably) immediate answers. No reward is worth any sacrifice, no matter how small if we can’t get the proof, the answers sought. Hiding, answering prayers with silence, or worse yet causing difficulty, heartache, pain isn’t a way to get people to believe in you. It’s the perfect recipe for disbelief, rebellion, and atheism.

        Reply

  3. five2one 3 months ago

    ‘What doesn’t kill me, makes me stronger’. Nietzsche. Same guy who wrote, “God is dead”, and “I am the Anti-Christ”.

    Well, even what kills me makes me stronger, too. Is what I have found.

    We need everyone to go through this, as I have. Not one, but two deaths.

    Once you have two, it is ‘let everything be settled by two or three witnesses’.

    I do not think, however, you should allow your heart to become calloused from the horrors of the world. On that angle, of what you are saying.

    It is like superman versus deadpool. Deadpool can be hurt, and feels the pain. But, not superman. We need that vulnerability. There is something to it. It is good. Fragile. Soft.

    Raw.

    Don’t let it kill you, because that is death.

    Regenerate.

    Reply

    • griz 2 months ago

      @five2one
      Actually Nietzsche never said the latter part of that quotation (to mt knowledge and I’m currently studying him); and the first part is perpetually taken out of context.

      While Nietzsche was a notorious critic of religion, he was an admirer of the underlying principles. “God is dead” is not a victory cry but a lament. And the resulting need for the Ubermensch would seem in his eyes to be more the best that we could hope for, rather than the ideal solution.

      He seems to paint it as the best possible solution to the rise in factious ideologies and nihilism he is concerned will destroy the race.

      His brilliance is that he predicted this 130 years ago.

      Reply

      • five2one 2 months ago

        @griz Craig, u know I am just goofing around….

        THX for the ride.

        Reply

  4. luftballooneyegouge 2 months ago

    One can never truly become accustomed to the horrors of the world. You could try, but what it’d do to you wouldn’t be worth it.

    You thinkin’ of working in a slaughter-house or something?

    Reply

    • Author
      Jear77 2 months ago

      @luftballooneyegouge no. But the horrors of the world can drag you down if you let them. If you could get accustomed to them, they might not affect you as much.

      Reply

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