Should we be so inured to them that we no longer feel horror and dread at its evils?




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  1. griz 3 weeks ago

    Only if we choose to.

    The problem is that both personally, and in what we are choosing to do with ourselves in this moment, we can ourselves be one of the dread horrible evils in the world. Intrinsically and extrinsically.

    But it’s far easier on the ego to believe that all of these things exist “elsewhere”. And taken to the psychological extreme, this very easily becomes their being concentrated in the ultimate epitome of “elsewhere”: God or “manifest existential reality”.

    The coming to terms with evil and horror, begins in diving deep and discovering that these things exist in you. Solzhenitsyn observed that the line (the battle-line per se) between good and evil runs right through the middle of every human soul. Both Jung and Freud talked about “integration of the shadow” in one’s own personal psyche. Heidegger spoke of similar integration. In his own unique way, so did Nietzsche.

    When one can identify and own and then even start to master the evil and horror within themselves, it becomes a lot easier to not be “so injured” by the same thing in the outside world.
    It’s akin to a psychological (or spiritual?) immune system. Once you’ve “had the bug” and your system found a defense against it, you develop an immunity to that “bug”.

    If it’s particularly noxious it can still cause mild symptoms. If it mutates it can still put you down. But you survive, where someone without developed immunity will die.

    We cannot hermetically seal ourselves away from the malicious evil and horrors in the world. Mythologically, even in a walled Garden of Perfection, a Serpent can still get in. And the best way to handle it, is to have some experience at handling the bag of serpents we all can be when the right (or wrong!) spirit moves us!

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      Jear77 3 weeks ago

      @griz hm.
      if you’re “in the world, but not of it,” that you’re “passing through” as the hymn states, that you’re really not a citizen of the earth, that means you’re effectively saying that nothing can happen to you ultimately, therefore you really shouldn’t give a rat’s ass about what happens here, and should feel separeted from it as much as possible.

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      • griz 3 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        The problem with a mindset of finding fault, is that it invalidates the finding of good.
        I’m a citizen of God’s kingdom; but that kingdom is currently manifest here on Earth so of course I’m “of” that citizenry enjoying the perks of love, joy, peace, and purpose greater than self that are markers of that kingdom: yet I still exist in and interact with this physical place.

        And while I work and live and move through the kingdom who’s markers are angst, horror, meaninglessness, malice, treachery etc, that is not my “citizenship” so I don’t have to exist under those “rules of engagement” if I don’t want to.
        (And from the sounds of it, you could really benefit from not having to interpret and live everything by these “rules of citizenry” either!).

        The processes of interpretation/understanding you are using to fuel your frustration and anger are more of man-made religion (aka, OF the world) than of the Spirit. It essentially creates a fallacy loop where end dictates the mean which is then used to justify the end that seeks the means to justify the end.
        It’s no wonder you don’t feel like you have any time or energy for more meaningful pursuits.

        Of course things in the world can affect me. But “I have the power” to not let them have lasting effect on me. (A bit of “Silver Surfer”-type super-power!). Nothing can have lasting effect on me unto robbing me of my “kingdom citizenry” (and perks), save I allow it.

        And this physical life is like a training grounds where I get to learn just what of this world I don’t have to let have lasting effect on me. (And perhaps, what other “powers” might come with “kingdom citizenry”!).

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 weeks ago

        @griz no matter one’s attitude, things affect people LOTS more than they let on. They just don’t discuss it because it’s impolite and there’s nothing the other person can do about it anyways, so they bottle it up inside. And those things that you let slide, that you think you chose to let go of may one day come back and bite you in the ass. Those people who you forgave, betray you once again. That area that you thought was so firmly in the past, rears its ugly head.

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      • griz 3 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        Our only true freedom is to control how we handle things. We can choose to hold our tongue, or reserve judgement, to walk away, to blow up, to bottle up, or to play victim-hood Olympics as if we’re going for gold.

        As I’ve said before, forgiveness doesn’t equal naivety nor an identity of pending victim-hood. There are wise ways to exercise it — and even instructions AND example to that end!

        And the result manifest in my life seems to be successfully navigating between being an easy mark, and becoming so isolated and cynical everything spins negative and meaningless with most effort expended unto the worsening of that mental attitude/state.

        Essentially, I can spiritually “afford” to trust to a greater degree than most, but know the point to walk away. I learn and benefit, and so do people around me who cannot believe someone in this world will both trust then, and be trustworthy towards them.

        I know who we are as a species, because I can afford to know who I am. (Integration of the shadow)
        And I know how to heal if I get it wrong.

        And this is practically indistinguishable . . . from having a superpower everyone else lacks!

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 weeks ago

        @griz really? “How we respond?” That’s a crock. Do you think anyone would respond to life… by getting old, by dying (unless they’re suicidal). No. Don’t try to feed me nonsense. I can see right through it.

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      • griz 3 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.”

        You cannot see past the inability to discern between the things you can and cannot change.

        To use the things you cannot change as constant excuse to not change the things you can, is dopey.

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 weeks ago

        @griz the serenity prayer can’t do jack especially if a person won’t accept the things they can’t change. And if god exists and is all powerful shouldn’t the following come to mind? “i can do ALL things.” Not some things. Not most things. Not many things. All. Anything less makes god a liar.

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  2. immortal_pirate 3 weeks ago

    Know thy enemy and know thy self…

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    • Author
      Jear77 3 weeks ago

      @immortal_pirate What if the self IS the enemy, ultimately?

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      • griz 3 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        Then defeat it with the hero that is you.

        You are capable of both.

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 weeks ago

        @griz that might work if you had all the time in the world. But we both know we don’t.

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      • griz 3 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        Perhaps start by recovering all the time spent weaving excuses and defenestrations?

        There is more than enough time in life to get the things done that need to be done.
        (Or that have been set aside specifically for YOU to do!).

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 weeks ago

        @griz all or nothing.

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      • immortal_pirate 3 weeks ago

        @Jear77 You are your own worst enemy…

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 weeks ago

        @immortal_pirate so is everyone, ironically enough… Next?

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      • griz 2 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        There are two problems with this
        1) looking for it in the wrong places and
        2) considering that “nothing found” as evidence there is nothing to find if one bothers to look in the right places.

        It’s a high-level cop-out strategy.

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 weeks ago

        @griz all would include the ability to find by means that are independently verifiable, recordable, testable .

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      • griz 2 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        We’ve already covered that territory.

        Empiricism only goes so far.
        Even the scientists that earn their living from it acknowledge this.

        Is Jear wiser than them?

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 weeks ago

        @griz perhaps i am. Or perhaps what you consider to be among those categories are more provable than you think. empiricism is the only way to do most things. And the few things that don’t exactly fall into those categories… matter nothing because they piggyback onto things that ARE. Even the bible/ a famous song says this “they will know you are Christians by your love.” Love is action/ words, and notable by the loved one’s physical presence, therefore able to be recorded by witnesses and video. In all other aspects of one’s life one needs proof, authortative witnesses, or at least a good track record. Employers (basically) don’t hire people without having someone vouch for them. You wouldn’t go to a restaurant or entertainment venue without knowing what to expect. In this day and age, you shouldn’t associate/ date people without having at keast “googled” them, because your association can cause trouble later on. You can’t be a prosecutor and expect a suspect to be charged with a crime where the charges will stick without evidence. Yet if all the “evidence” of a subject were presented for whatever there is that people believe in (be it for god(s), ghosts, mysterious planets or additional suns, aliens, crypozoological animals, or conspiracy theories) were presented to a person without context of what one is talking about, you’d be looked at as if you’re crazy. And you really don’t need a book to tell you not to hurt others. So there’s literally nothing i gain to being open to things that aren’t verifiable, recordable, or testable in some way, shape, or form.

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      • griz 2 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        It’s interesting that most people of insight and wisdom from history, have not fancied themselves wiser than most.

        I would challenge you to prove that empiricism is the only way to do most things. Please start with the things deemed by most to be the most meaningful and enduring in life.

        You could follow this up with an expose on exactly how empiricism assigns value in the first place.
        It can show what people assess as valuable, and try to assign correlation.
        But value is circumstantial. And empiricism is about that which is not circumstantial.

        Action is given as one of the indicators of love. But in itself is no proof of it as actions that would seem loving in the moment (like a toxic mother spoiling her child) are actually hateful in the long run.

        So empiricism has no traction here until a long a long time after the causal event is irreversible.

        I acknowledge the rest of what you wrote but it is in exactly the same thread.

        To which I would reply yet again that empiricism is a very fine tool; but a terrible Almighty.

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      • Author
        Jear77 2 weeks ago

        @griz we’ll only know after we die, as that will prove one of us right and one of us wrong… and i’m perfectly fine with waiting until then. Untik then empiricism is the only way I will deal with things. And at that point que sera, sera!

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      • griz 3 days ago

        @Jear77
        By what proof or authority would you assert that you can only know this after you die?

        I have abundant and growing confirmation of what I assert. But as I’ve said a LONG time ago: I’ve been willing to go to where such evidence can be found, whereas you’ve used up most of your energy trying to justify why you shouldn’t have to go to where it can be found.

        There is zero surprise as why one of us found it, and the other didn’t. And even in this, we have confirmation that “God” (whatever that may or may not be), exercises respect for our exercise of agency.

        And this in a way, may be a sort of “test”.

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 days ago

        @griz tou are a witness to yourself. As you have pointed out we can’t experience the sum total of reality… if this is the case, what if this witness you are bringing to the table is flawed, skewed, or somehow wrong in some way that changes everything if the error came to light?

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      • griz 3 days ago

        @Jear77
        Your “all-or-nothing” shackle blinds you.

        What if what one brings to the table is right?

        Living in fear is a miserable hell. Whether fear of action, fear of free thought, fear of free choice, fear of responsibility, fear of consequence.

        It is only by carrying a load, that we become able to carry greater loads.

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      • Author
        Jear77 3 days ago

        @griz you say you can’t experience ultimate reality because your senses won’t allow it… yet somehow you are able to tap into something beyond ultimate reality? Seems you can’t keep your facts straight.

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      • griz 7 hours ago

        @Jear77
        Again the All or Nothing mentality blinds you.

        I have never said or implied that I experience Ultimate Reality.

        Only that I seem to interact on numerous occasions with something beyond what most people would consider standard (empirically proven) reality. And that there are others who report the same, and report similar experience with it. And this is true trans temporarily and trans culturally with groups isolated from one another.

        Which would seem to imply it is something “transcendent”. And who can say exactly what that does or does not mean?
        Certainly not science.

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  3. five2one 3 weeks ago

    ‘What doesn’t kill me, makes me stronger’. Nietzsche. Same guy who wrote, “God is dead”, and “I am the Anti-Christ”.

    Well, even what kills me makes me stronger, too. Is what I have found.

    We need everyone to go through this, as I have. Not one, but two deaths.

    Once you have two, it is ‘let everything be settled by two or three witnesses’.

    I do not think, however, you should allow your heart to become calloused from the horrors of the world. On that angle, of what you are saying.

    It is like superman versus deadpool. Deadpool can be hurt, and feels the pain. But, not superman. We need that vulnerability. There is something to it. It is good. Fragile. Soft.

    Raw.

    Don’t let it kill you, because that is death.

    Regenerate.

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