What if the accused murderer was also a friend?
How do you think that would complicate things?

If there was a remote chance you could help the living friend by betraying a confidence to the dead friend, would you anguish over it, or just do it?

What do we owe to the memory of a friend?




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  1. ladybarbara 4 weeks ago

    There was once a time when someone was murdering children in the Los Angeles area. I looked at the victim’s pictures in the paper — all boys the ages of my sons — the victims resembled each of my sons. The murderer was picking up hitchhiking boys, he would strangle them with their own t-shirts while raping them anally !!! They died horribly, then were tossed out by a freeway. At that time, my oldest son was ditching school and hitching rides to the beach. I was frightened for the safety of my son. I caught my son ditching school and trying to hitch a ride to the beach. I jumped on his back and rode him around in circles, beating on his back, head, and shoulders, as he twirled in circles begging me to stop. Someone called the police and the police pulled me off of my son.

    I was lividly angry and explained to the police that it seemed that the Freeway Killer lived close to our area and picking up victims that were the age of my son and looked like my son. I was trying to stop someone I loved from getting picked up by a killer —— and killed!!! Still, I was arrested —- book and release. Both of my sons were taken away from me and placed in Foster care in Foster homes in another county —- a two hour drive to visit them.

    I was watching the news a month later and they announced that the Freeway Killer was arrested. My blood turned to ice water and I dropped to the floor when I saw that the Freeway Killer was the man who had been my high school sweetheart and first husband (15 years before this time) . I was his mother’s friend and she thought of me as a daughter-in-law. (The daughter-in-law that got away and was remarried) I called her to see if she was OK. She was distraught!!! Just a month earlier, I had taken my sons to her house to swim in the pool. The murderer — we did not know he was the murderer at the time — came home with blood all over his clothing. He told us he had a bloody nose and his mother washed his shirt in cold water while he changed his clothing. We had no idea that Billy was the killer.

    Time passed in a blur of driving to San Diego to visit my sons, and going to the Freeway Killer trials to sit with his mother and hold her hand. It must have been hell for her to love her son and know that he killed so many children. All of California hated him and his mother. His mother was hated in our neighborhood and couldn’t even venture out of her house and go shopping without getting attacked and spit on. The killer was arrested for 10 murders in Los Angeles and 4 murders in Orange County. In two trials, he was sentenced to death twice. He was taken to San Quentin State Prison’s Death Row. The truth was that he had killed 44 children. My heart went out to all the parents and grandparents of all of the murder victims.

    I spent years moving to San Diego to be near my sons, fighting my own case in the courts to get my sons back, and driving back to Downey (in the Los Angeles area) to make sure that the killer’s mother was OK. For 13 years, the killer sat on Death Row. He needed canteen money, quarterly boxes of goodies and clothing and I helped his mother supply these boxes for her son. Because I was close to a killer’s family, there was no way in hell that the courts would give me my sons back.

    At the time of the orders for the execution of the killer, his step-father (the husband of the killer’s mother) was deathly ill and ready to die in a hospital. In the end, the family was torn between her son being executed and her husband near death. They chose to be at the bedside of the dying step-father. So, I went to the prison to spend time with the killer in his last weeks. I watched the execution and arranged for his cremation and burial at sea. I was able to go to the funeral of the killer’s stepfather —– who died on the same night as the killer. I was driving all over California for all the people I loved.

    Meanwhile, at home, there was my own husband waiting with the patience of Job for me to end this crazy soap opera of a life —- catering to everyone else, but him.
    After the execution, the funerals, the dumping of killer ashes at sea, and taking care of the killer’s grieving mother —– my husband waited at home to welcome an end to all this craziness. Often, he asked me, “Who do you love more?” I loved ALL of these people.

    You do for each person what is needed at the time. Add to all of this that some of my friends in my neighborhood were the parents of some of the murder victims. My heart went out to everyone.

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  2. Scarlett 4 weeks ago

    Hopefully, I would deal with my grief directly. It has been said that time heals the wounds, but in more recent years it has been found that it not true. Dealing with it directly is more fruitful.

    As for the living friend who killed, I would have to know the circumstances surrounding the killing. is this something I believe this person would do again? If so, I would not help the person out of trouble. I would hope that I could continue to provide emotional support despite the issues the person had, but then again if they were vastly unhealthy I may want to create some distance between them and my life.

    I do not feel like I have risen to the level where I can have vastly unhealthy people close in my life. Maybe there will come a day where I can be of some service to them without them triggering me. If I am triggered by past traumas, I can not be of much help. I continue to work towards healing so that the past events no longer hold an emotional charge for me.

    to the memory of a friend, we owe only that , remembering the good times. There is a Portuguese word “saudade”, it means remembering that which is gone.

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  3. Jear77 3 weeks ago

    There are too many “what ifs” in this proposed scenario to be able to honestly answer it in a coherent manner… or even a manner that wouldn’t miss some detail that could change my answer completely.

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    • Author
      griz 3 weeks ago

      @Jear77
      I wasn’t really looking for an equation.

      Or an answer that would be graded!

      You once said you were creative?

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      • Jear77 3 weeks ago

        @griz actually i cheat when it comes to creativity. At least half of what i do is research. Your question is like asking for all of the variables of a compound interest equation… without having any of the parts! IIRC (and i may be wrong) most equations only ask you at most 1 piece of information , even if you have to figure out how to arrange the formula or extract it from the question.

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      • Author
        griz 3 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        It was more like asking for input from friends to help puzzle through a problem .
        But never mind if evasion is all you can muster.

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      • Jear77 3 weeks ago

        @griz if it’s a true problem, give all details.

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      • Author
        griz 3 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        Publication ban.
        But if you want to find reasons you cannot participate with what I’ve given, that is a dimension you can call into existence and live in.

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      • Jear77 3 weeks ago

        @griz heh. So you’ve been slapped with a gag order. Y’know the courts don’t check this platform..

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      • Author
        griz 3 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        It’s more like I don’t want to give any reason for my pending deposition to be excluded on any account. You never know what platforms an investigation might check. And there’s already been efforts taken to not taint the investigation in any way, so I respect that.

        So I’m asking for input from friends in a way that doesn’t disclose any details that are not yet public information. In fact, I’m even avoiding sharing those.

        So if people cannot participate within the framework offered, they are self-excluded from helping out.

        The are denied entry to that dimension!

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      • Jear77 3 weeks ago

        @griz the law can’t really do anything to you, except throw out your testimony – and if they have other evidence it may not matter, unless they’ve “gagged” you. If they have it’s a ‘contempt of court’ charge. Are you worried about a guilty party escaping punishment?

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      • Author
        griz 3 weeks ago

        @Jear77
        My key interest is justice for both of my friends.

        And I may know things nobody else does because I remained friends to both of them and wasn’t playing one side or the other. Almost everyone else was only getting one side of things.

        That’s for the experts to decide. But I won’t have my testimony thrown out just because I could not resist the urge to engage in idle gossip and speculation online.

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      • ladybarbara 3 weeks ago

        @griz Very smart of you. I mentioned something about a death row case I had worked on for 10 years. I said some facts that only those working on the case know about. I mentioned it on BOTH SoulPancake and again here. I thought that anything I said on here would not go anywhere. Low and behold … some groupie Googled one of the facts —– and there it was! Everything I wrote was in a file of the facts of the case. That serial killer groupie mentioned it in a letter to the death row inmate and he complained to his attorneys. The attorneys Googled it and sent me a letter telling me to STOP discussing the case. I ended up turning in all my files and dropping all work. Today, the man has been on death row for 38 years. They won’t execute him because there is a load of case facts that point to him being innocent —– however, the attorneys and a judge are dragging their feet and they hope he dies of old age before he can get another trial.

        So, word can be Googled and found. Loose lips sink ships.

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      • Author
        griz 3 weeks ago

        @ladybarbara
        I hope I’ve been wise in my wording of the question. I craved the input of the friends I have here to help me deal with things personally . . . because ideally that is how we think and figure things out.
        And what’s the use of friends if you cannot ask for their thoughts when you need them?

        I read through your response, and even looked up Bonin. And something at the end of your response was actually something I needed to hear, so thanks.

        My motivation right now is for the fullest extent of justice for both my friends. And to me it would be dishonorable to both of them to risk devaluing my testimony with careless words or idle gossip/speculation.

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      • Author
        griz 3 weeks ago

        @ladybarbara

        Here’s what’s been publicly released to date.
        https://northernontario.ctvnews.ca/elliot-lake-man-faces-first-degree-murder-charge-1.4178634

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  4. five2one 3 weeks ago

    I would not like to have to go through that, at all.

    Much of who I am and what I do is literally coping with things, as a good friend of mine once pointed out. But, I would not like to have to try and cope with this.

    I have, in a distant sense, because I have felt it has been my duty to study genocides, and terrible things, and I have had to learn to accept those who did these things, to varying degrees.

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    • Author
      griz 3 weeks ago

      @five2one
      “Exploring the shadow” is in a way, a noble quest: but not for the naive or coddled. To be a force for good, one has to have an understanding of what true evil is. With the strong provision that one has the spiritual support/fortitude to overcome any evil they may touch with good and not be subsumed by it.

      What you call coping, some might call surviving. I crave to go beyond that to “overcoming”. Which is sometimes instantaneous, but more often is a protracted process.

      The original question links to something I’m actually going through right now.
      It sucks.
      But I’m sure in the end I will manage to “overcome” and do something with the memory to honor my friends.

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      • five2one 3 weeks ago

        @griz I definitely am an overcomer… Jacob -> Israel, ‘struggle with man & God, and overcome’, ‘for those with ears to hear’…

        The role model I often turn to when dealing with someone/something really bad, is actually Jonah, which I mix with Jesus: that is Jonah saw the error of Nineveh, but knew God was merciful beyond understanding and if he came there and preached a message even of doom, God would simply use that to cause them to repent and change. All because Jonah was shown that about God.

        I mix that story with Jesus, because ‘Jesus is greater then Jonah’, in that Jesus was with God in the forgiveness and saving the city part, whereas Jonah was not. He remained in his anger. But, his knowledge of God saved that city.

        The anger against real evil is something, and we can’t really multitask, but we can strive to come out the other end, realizing the light of hope…

        I do not find I can multitask, like really get out of that anger at the time. But, it is like a hole, where I can listen to reason, and see a way out of that hole.

        Anything broken is broken for a reason, and can be fixed.

        Probably does not help. Sorry. :(

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      • Author
        griz 3 weeks ago

        @five2one
        Well, an interesting answer at least! And the thought you put into understanding your process is something that perhaps we don’t see enough of in the world.

        But here’s a question to another believer.
        Do you think faith in the paradigm of Christ (forgiveness) creates a kind of “safe space” where one is not just freer to explore where one is broken, but expected to as a condition of forgiveness?

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      • five2one 3 weeks ago

        @griz “Well, an interesting answer at least! And the thought you put into understanding your process is something that perhaps we don’t see enough of in the world.”

        Thank you. I am told ‘intense scrutiny’ is something I am good at, and useful for. Though, this is a product of design, not my own doing.

        “But here’s a question to another believer.
        Do you think faith in the paradigm of Christ (forgiveness) creates a kind of “safe space” where one is not just freer to explore where one is broken, but expected to as a condition of forgiveness?”

        We pray that ‘we may be forgiven, as we forgive others’. We are ‘judged by the same standard we use to judge others’.

        Those are the conditions of forgiveness.

        Otherwise, not sure what you mean.

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      • Author
        griz 2 weeks ago

        @five2one
        You choose to manifest it. So that is of your doing.

        Do you think the paradigm of Christ gives those who choose to believe it an advantage when it comes to both exploring and incorporating “the shadow” aspects of their nature?

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      • five2one 2 weeks ago

        @griz “You choose to manifest it. So that is of your doing.

        Do you think the paradigm of Christ gives those who choose to believe it an advantage when it comes to both exploring and incorporating “the shadow” aspects of their nature?”

        I went into this, in the previous response, tonight, but I really do not have any sense of free will, my own self. Probably why this is not hard for me to get, and one of my favorite topics of conversation.

        I have a sense of self, I have a soul. But, I am a moving about doll, with a sparkle in my eyes. I have a radio set in my heart.

        I don’t want to age, I don’t want to get hurt, I don’t want to play a devil (usually), I don’t want to get a police ticket, or many things. Somethings I do, I don’t want to do.

        I like to say anything bad I do, anything bad I say, that is my real self. But, it is just another role I play. I have nearly zero sense of free will.

        I can. I can be anyone. I am an excellent method actor, and can get into anyone’s heads.

        I can see, at times, my heart trailing off, like today: gee whiz, abusing psychedelics last year brought me to some profound truths I otherwise would not have been able to consider… but quickly reeled myself back in, ‘I have a scheduled speaking engagement tomorrow, it would affect me’.

        I have done plenty of things I am ashamed of,which I hate, and can obsess over… but to the value of questioning ‘why’? I find they had their purposes at the time, and if I can not figure it out, maybe I just do not need to know why.

        ‘Shadow aspects’, I have been everything and anyone… and can at any time.

        As much light as I have had, do you think it has not made me wonky, or I have never run from it? I can run from it, at any time.

        I have been cursed, and walked in terrible things and terrible places. I have lived without God, and wandering.

        It is difficult for me to fathom how I have lived with a bag over my head, unable to see or hear.

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      • five2one 2 weeks ago

        @griz I should add: I do not think you should intentionally sin, but this is complicated, as well, because the world is so messed up. People may think that good is bad and bad is good.

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