In the news today, an innocent woman was killed by a teenager who was driving under the legal age, and engaging in criminal mischief while driving.The article stated they did not yet to know if the perpetrator would be charged as a minor or as an adult? Should children be treated the same as an adult? Science shows that the adolescent brain is not fully developed, especially with respect to impulsivity and decision making. What are your thoughts?




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  1. griz 6 months ago

    The classic “adult brain” doesn’t fully emerge until the mid to late 20’s. (Which is where risky, poorly thought-through behaviors start to diminish). The most notable change (iirc) is the motor strip differentiates into the motor strip and the prefrontal cortex.
    The prefrontal cortex is what allows us to run a scenario through in our mind without committing the body to it. We create a proposition of action, populate it with an avatar of ourselves, and run it through to see if the avatar dies. (Colloquially called “thinking things through).

    *Now this is analysis of a manifest social situation, and not accusation or “battle-tactic! It is personal supposition, but is backed by my studies in psychology (developmental and evolutionary), philosophy, history to name a few*

    Our society is a bizarre one when it comes to spoiling and infantilizing our young people — wanting to treat them as incompetent children long after we arguably should. It is a function of toxic femininity, not wanting to gracefully surrender the classic feminine archetypal identity of mother-with-child. If there is no incompetent child, this identity is shattered. Now this is one of the “automatic entitlements/idenities/values ” society grants a woman. How to construct another, is a scary prospect. Far better to guard “job security”.
    This process has been on noticeable rise in our society since the 60’s.
    And this plays into the classic Jungian “devouring mother” (see the story of Hansel and Gretel, which is arguably far far older than people tend to think. It’s a story of seeking to consume arguably the competency of a child to sustain an adult in a “necessary” role when spun feminine. Spun masculine, it’s motivation is to keep them from becoming a threat to the father’s manifest competence).

    It’s good to remember that until recently, most cultures would give a child a coming-of-age ceremony anywhere between age 13-15 and from that point on consider them an adult. Or more accurately, a “practicing adult”. And they were considered a voice in tribal matters — though a diminished one unless they showed precocious wisdom.

    That we rather arbitrarily chose age 16 (for a considerable time) and then 19 and now I hear rumblings of changing it to 21 — is really no different than having it around 13 when puberty tends to hit. There is a sense in linking it to an identifiable physiological change, particularly in the child’s mind.
    It’s a “time to practice” being an adult — not to languish in childish incompetent.

    But we are giving our “infants” no compelling reason to even begin to “practice” being an adult until they are well into their 20’s. 30’s. Even 40’s and living in mom’s basement. And if there is no expectation of having to grow up, become competent and take fuller amounts of responsibility for themselves, human nature dictates that many (most?) will not.
    But this will grate on their psyche, leading to increased incidence of acting out behaviors with all the strength (and maliciousness) of an sullen bitter adult. It also leads quite naturally into nihilism. There is “no purpose” because society is trying to retard them into infancy. So “no purpose” . . . . becomes “the purpose”.

    That a death is involved in this case further complicates things. Erasing a life from the planet is a devastating psychological prospect on the person. Even if it’s “justified”. Even if there’s just the conviction one allowed it to happen.

    And there is something that if it’s not already, should be called “the OJ Effect” [Simpson]. If your psyche tells you that you have done something against the society — especially something horrendous — and there is insufficient (or no) justice done, the mind sets about creating it’s own “punishments” trying to reset the “scales”. It is why OJ is and continues to be such a miserable self-punishing human being. It is why Nazi war criminals finally tracked down by Nakam have been known to express relief at finally having a “punishment” fit to their crimes — because of lifetime of even low-level self-punishment and hiding from consequences weighs on a person psychologically. Some of the most onerous forms this takes is criminal hardening, sociopathy and even psycophathy. Then both the individual and the society is “punished” for not exercising proper justice.

    When functioning properly, justice assesses a society-approved chastisement which upon completion, says “There. You’ve paid for that crime. The scales are balanced.” And live can proceed without having to carry that weight of knowing “you got away with something”.
    Which personally, I don’t believe ever happens. (tied to my Spiritual beliefs).

    So what might be best for this “teenager” AND for society? And let’s not overlook “deterrent effect” — or most notably lack thereof. I’ve worked with problem children before, and they are emboldened in criminal activity by knowing they will be coddled.

    I’m going to have to look up that story. Because “adolescent” to most means ages 11-14 when there is still more child than adult. “Teenager” means anything up to 19. And I’ve even seen some uber-liberal news/entertainment sources continuing to call 20+, “boy” or “girl”.

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    • Jear77 5 months ago

      @griz don’t forget that the in Jewish society, age 12 is an adult for most things. They don’t have the same gradation into teenage years.

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      Scarlett2 5 months ago

      @griz im afraid you lost me at toxic femininity. I think it is a fair question since their brains aren’t fully developed and they can’t control the development of their own brains. I don’t equate any of that to not having consequences, tho.

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Scarlett2
        Toxic masculinity is an accepted concept. It is the group of behaviors that manifest when the fear arises that “very identity” is threatened — and tends to act out primarily physically in accordance with masculinity’s strength.

        Toxic femininity is often either glossed over or its existence outright denied. It also happens when the fear of the loss of very identity arises. Most societies grant women automatic identity in the Jungian archetype of mother-with-child. And what threatens this identity, is no more child to mother. (Which incidentally, is why menopause is such an “identity-shaking” event).
        So the set of behaviors making up toxic femininity seek to keep this from happening and brings forth the archetypal narrative of the “devouring mother”. It is the theme of the fable of Hansel and Gretel, Sleeping Beauty, and of many “wicked witch” narratives. What is “devoured” is the tender growing adult competency that will erase the “child” from the equation and replace them with a competent adult agent. The response is to spoil and infantilize so the child is never “lost”, therefore the identity is never lost.

        And this protective narrative can be played out by proxy too, if one feels they can “mother” an oppressed victimhood group (it’s spinning very toxic at this point). This is why many of the things being done to allegedly help various groups (feminism and BLM for prime examples) are actually working against them in a very infantilizing way. The prospect is being raised that these groups are far too incompetent, helpless and devoid of adult competency (including anti-fragility) to protect themselves from even the prospect of maybe possibly things that could conceivably hurt them in some vague ill-defined way at some point.

        (I know that can be a difficult process to contemplate. But it is the best truth on this issue that I know).

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz it’s baffling to me why is it you can these concepts when it comes to us, but not how it’s applicable to god. I see both of these very toxic concepts and the proxy quite clearly playing out in the bible in various ways god acts.

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        We are talking about entities (us) that are neither transcendent nor divine (at least by current reckoning!).

        It baffles me why you persist in thinking things that govern a lesser phenomena (us) are a valid frame of interpretation for penultimate expression of All-That-Is.

        This is child’s thinking Jear — believing the very reality of existence is somehow “unfair” because all of the rights, powers, realities and responsibilities of fully realized adulthood — should naturally apply to the incompetent and inexperienced child.

        That’s a good way to destroy a child.
        I sure hope that’s not your story.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz think of things this way: we, and everything here in this reality, are a product of a manufacturer (god). We SHOULD have a beef with it and are perfectly free to judge it because the product isn’t as advertised… as “very good!” Our lives are the consumable products that come in various sizes, and the expiration date is our death, which we never know when our time is up. If this were ANY other product, there’d be a class action lawsuit against the manufacturer.
        You’ve stated in numerous posts that getting triggered is a bad thing, a sign of toxic feminism. But if you look at god’s plans for those who don’t worship him/ his son into hell forever, it would seem that god is the most triggered one of all, and he has no plans to lessen his triggers, outside of hell. See my point?

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        The problem there is that we cannot just put The Transcendent into a box of “just us, only supercharged” without horrendous exercise of hubris.

        There is no “triggering” in natural consequence. You are still trying to enforce an ideological narrative relating to “just us”, on quite literally “EVERYTHING”.

        And that takes a monster ego big enough to entirely subsume the aspects of our nature and agency that are “made in God’s image”.

        (Or, “that can reach for the Transcendent Ideal” and have a chance of reaching it).

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz that’s where you and i disagree. There is no hubris, because this is what reality is: an open sandbox video game… with no ability to decompile the code to access its assets, no point to the game, no end level, nothing. If we were handed a video game like this, we would say it’s broken. If there were a creator, with the proccess of the scientific method, we would be able to see its fingerprints on everything.
        As far as “natural consequence(s)” that’s what a triggered deity would WANT you to believe, so it’s not able to be called out for being triggered! Once again, i say the very things not only others will not, but those things they are scared shitless to even consider.

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        The hubris is in considering ourselves, a minor species on a minor planet with only a rudimentary understanding of the complexities of existence . . . is anything more than a posturing idiot with delusions of grandeur in thinking our understanding of All-That-Is, is sufficient to judge it as lacking.

        That amounts to little more than an unfalsifiable reason to disengage and be miserable.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz then perhaps all-that-is shouldn’t have bothered with creating those it knew were capable of passing judgement on it. Remember omniscience!

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        That doesn’t even track logically; except in a paradigm of slavery.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz no .. if it didn’t want criticism… it could have not created that which would criticize… everything else could remain the same. How is that slavery in the least?

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        It’s not that Life doesn’t want criticism.

        It’s that a religion of trying to blame it for our shortcomings and misadventures within the structure we can do little about . . . is just a complex formula for self-enslavement to the darker more nihilistic aspects of human nature.

        Which is a free choice that a disturbing number of people are making and becoming increasingly desperate in trying to prove themselves wise in.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz if there is a god, it should be patient enough to hear people out who have legitimate concerns *after* life is over… or send them back for another life with full knowledge of where they went wrong.

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Our experience of reality seems to be an allotment of time to explore adventure and grow. And doing these things correctly puts us in fellowship with the pantheon of Life.

        To use that allotment of time just stand in a cosmic complaint line is problematic on so many levels.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz and doing them incorrectly should allow a 2nd chance.

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        So what are you waiting for?

        To die without ever having truly lived?

        Which BTW is not a function of money. Many filthy rich people die desperately empty and meaningless inside.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        S2@griz i don’t see any god’s followers gwtting what i demand. The powers of the Silver Surfer (at minimum), riches beyond immaging – billions upon billions upon billions of dollars, the ability to turn back time for my folks so they’re not in pain, eliminate my brother’s alcoholism, give me health such that i don’t need to worry about what i eat. These are the minimum of what i expect. If Christians experienced these things it’d be one thing… they simply don’t. All or nothing.

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Fantasy is not the same thing as reality.

        But reality properly engaged, can have some rather fantastic elements to it.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz well, those are my demands… he either wants me or he don’t. Since we’re dealing with someone who has the ability to do so (if the term of omnipotence is to be believed), what i ask is really not beyond the pale. Even if i said “ok, fuck me (in a bad way) but restore my parents to perfect health in this iteration,” it still won’t happen.

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Nobody gets to make those kind of ultimatums of Life Jear.

        Whoever told you that you were so precious that you could, lied.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz well obviously it simply doesn’t want me if i can’t. There’s something about me i said a long, long time ago: i don’t care if i make lose-lose-loose situations. Oh, yeah, I’m aware that I may lose, but so will you, and you’ll lose as much, if not more than I.

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        If you don’t care that you can make lose-lose situations, why do you get so upset when you see it as others fault that you can’t win?

        I know you don’t care that your logistical structure has holes in it you could drive it Death Star through.

        But there’s not much that can be said for being unfalsifiably silly.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz could it because I don’t like to be pushed into such desperate situations. Cornered, rabid animals are dangerous!

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  2. Yin 5 months ago

    Tough question. There are times where the crime is so heinous that I would be tempted to say, “Yes, at times.” I just feel there is more to it than that though. There are a ton of situations where they clearly aren’t thinking like an adult or make a honest mistake that ends in tragedy. I can’t say yes or no because it really depends on the situation. All situations should come with a chance to get out of prison though. There needs to be some evaluation before prison and some during to see if there is change happening. I personally feel prison should be used as a means to keep bad and dangerous people away from the public. It isn’t a punishment as it is a safeguard to citizens. If the people inside can and have changed, they don’t need to be in there.

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  3. Jear77 5 months ago

    It depends. There should be a failsafe test by which we are able to determine how mature an individual is… but there isn’t.

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    • griz 5 months ago

      @Jear77
      Adult maturity is more of a process than an event. So no, there isn’t that kind of “test” for it.

      A healthy process is to provide opportunity to prove it and a more forgiving attitude when inevitable failure results.

      But there is a difference between a process of wanting to advance and one of just taking advantage of leniency. There’s also a difference between actions that end up killing the goldfish and end up killing another person as the final result of string of doing things one knows are illegal.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz the test is simply to see if they are ready for certain aspects. Instead of saying “you can’t do X activities [drink/ smoke, gamble, vote, marry/ have sex, drive, obtain a job] until Y age” the test should be an indicator of whether the person in question can handle said responsibilities. If they fail, they’re able to keep trying until they pass. Certain circumstances will grant automatic passage for specific privileges (death of one’s parents, for instance, might ensure a person can legally get a job before they could normally).

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        The test has to be seeing if they can. And this is what the young adult (teen) years are for.

        But young people are not getting around to this because we mismanaged the system with the injection of too much infantilizing compassion and sent them the message that they can do whatever they want up to a certain age and enjoy leniency.

        So they arrive at their adult years as incompetent as children, and cry for all kinds of warnings protections and safe spaces filled with childish things.

        This is why many notable societies going all the way back to tribal cultures recognized there was a time in a child’s life for the mothering to end and the fathering to begin. Especially for boys.
        And often between the ages of 7 and 10.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz if you had kids, would you allow them to have sex at that age? Did any social structure that you know of do so?

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        It’s interesting my response, snd to slightly lesser extent the thread is about incompetency and now it’s suddenly about sex?!

        But yes. In many older Native cultures the young people couple and start their serious sex life shortly after their coming-of-age ritual. Some as young as 12.

        But remember that our society has HUGE hang-ups regarding sex. The children learned about it far more naturally and in a far less strained setting.

        It just “was”; and they often knew about it and witnessed it at very young ages. But until puberty just weren’t interested in it.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz and was this a healthy thing, even within the context of the society? A 11-12 year old can impregnate/ get pregnant. Consider how incompetent a 11 or 12 year old is when it comes to taking care of a child… which is why so many babies died. There are some things that one can be competent by doing, others that can’t. Jobs (just over broke employment situations) on tbe orher hand should really should be “ya need a job? Read over the requirements. Fill out this w-4 form. You’re hired.”

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      • griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Context Jear!
        Context context context! You love ripping context to your current needs.

        Competency was an entirely different thing in those cultures; and so was rearing a child.

        We are talking about human ability here; and how ours has atrophied to cheers and whistles and thinking ourselves wise in coddling adults as if they are children..

        I am fully aware of your Hang-Ups regarding this Society. But it would be nice if you didn’t try to make everything all about these Hang Ups.

        Any progress you may make in your life at this point, will require you getting a handle on these things.

        I know the job market is competitive. Just be aware that your Hang-Ups may be transmitted to potential employers without your being aware.

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  4. five2one 5 months ago

    No, children should not be treated as adults.

    The beast of the world is cruel and unforgiving, it is obsessed with death, killing those who worship it.

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