. . , comes from trying to pretend that reality is not reality.
So you’re saying that “sit down and shut the fuck up, accepting whatever god/fate/the universe decreed you have and be happy about it, no matter what, or if you do fight against it be happy about the fact you have something to struggle against, as compared to having an easy life.” No.
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It’s more like bravely face and engage the reality that is before you (suffering and all); rather than looking for someone to blame.
The reality is that almost anyone can do something to make their life better over the long run, even if just incrementally so.
But that starts with taking responsibility for oneself within manifest reality. And this cannot happen when we are always looking for someone to blame.
Trying to pretend that this is false, is a major source of unhappiness.
@griz bravely facing the reality that is before not only me but literally everything in existence is, at some point nonexistence. This is an inevitable, inescapable fate. The bravest thing would be to not give a fuck when or how it happens.
@Jear77 The stone cast into a pond produces ripples that have effect long after the stone has disappeared from sight.
And only the most simplistic of interpretations would contend that the stone no longer exists. It is simply moved beyond easy detection.
Nihilism is a poor stand in for intelligence
@griz so? The moment the person dies, they – and everything they did, within a few days is meaningless. The person who holds too tightly onto the deeds of a dead person is either a historian… or will soon find themselves obsolete, destined to failure.
@Jear77 I would suggest that such a view could only come if one was surrounded by nothing more than low quality wraiths (vs high quality Humans).
I find it incomprehensible that you’ve not been affected in an on-going way by someone who is no longer physically around. Whether we’re talking about the US nation’s founding fathers, military political or social leaders . . . or just someone who has personally had a meaningful impact on your life.
(With it being accepted that if all you’ve ever know is limited-dimension wraiths there’s not a lot of on-going meaning to be extracted.)
@griz we are all historians in one sense. It’s part of the history classes we all take. Go back in town and eliminate any one of the historical figures… or even the whole lot, things’d’ve been done by others. I.E. nothing would have changed.
@Jear77 I don’t think we can know that beyond speculative imagination. (Which then blurs the line between reality and fantasy — and that’s not a good place to live).
I wonder if Martin Luther King hadn’t come along when he did, things would have worked out as relatively peacefully as they did? Inter-racial tensions would have continued to rise to the point where overt violence would have become more and more inevitable.
Look at the various turning-points in WWII. Almost all of them are tied to the initiation of a single person at a critical time. Someone MIGHT have found a similar point in time to apply a later resolution. But at the loss of how many more lives? Plus, consider what a resolution might look like AFTER the person who decided not to launch the nuclear arsenal never did it. Single people make a difference — regardless of what some nihilist ideology might say.
Look Jear. Consider that IF there was some power, principality or agency that wanted to render a people invalid. One of the surest ways, is to convince them there is and can be no meaning, no purpose, not one thing they can do. Would want to surrender so easily to such a bastard?
Even if there is no “agency” other than us . . . imagine us wanting to do this to ourselves, by ourselves, of ourselves?
Would that be any more desirable a bastard to surrender to?
@griz if it’s just us… it’s better to realize it’s our own actions that count (in the here and now). For us the here and now matters, but we still need to be prescient/ foresightful to know one day the sun will swallow the earth and no matter what, at that point, unless we are living among the stars, or have been able to shift planes, we will be no more.
@Jear77 But the way we evolved away from primitive animals into moral agents aware of self and time . . . was to look beyond self in the moment and as illustrated in the story of Cain and Abel, make the proper sacrifices to the future. I’m sure they each could have used those sacrifices for some good purpose in the moment, but they chose to try to bargain with the future as if it was something that could be properly bargained with. (Remember that the moral of the story isn’t that Cain’s sacrifice was not a good/sufficient one . . . but that he chose to grow bitter over why reality couldn’t align itself so that what he cared to offer WOULD be a proper/sufficient sacrifice. He never tried to make a better one! And this led rapidly to the first truly malicious act of evil ever recorded). An imagined ending-point years or untold eons later that we use for the sole purpose of generating resentment and bitterness, can in no way be a winning equation.
@griz actually, according to Christian theology, a huge part of it was that it wasn’t blood, thus pointing to Christ’s needful sacrifice… and no matter what vegetables he brought, they’d never be good enough. This is the same needless message tbat embodies the Christian message “you are not enough.” Sorry, that’s not something i can get behind.
@Jear77 The keynote of that story — tied to the idea of blood sacrifice — is that it takes something very very special and meaningful for high-level bargaining with the future. And to effect lasting personal change. Your action, is tied to substitutionary outcome that is not that pleasant. It’s high-level behavior modification by choice. (Or by fear of outcome, should one wish to “install” that meaning”
There is just not the same weight carried by a bleeding beet and a perfect and valuable life that had to “stand in the gap” for us.
Run that by me again? You just cannot get behind the idea of genuine repentance, vs a show?
@griz you don’t get it. It needn’t have gotten there to begin with because since god knew from eternity past that things were going to turn out this way, the most logical thing to do would be NOT create evil. And if for some reason he was forced to do so, forgive everyone without the sacrifice of his son… or simply not cared about the concept of sin/ evil to begin with, so that it didn’t matter what anyone did
@Jear77 I think much misery comes from the notion one can out-think, out-maneuver, out-create God.
Every day has it’s night. And delusions of superiority over God rarely end well.
And there’s profound wisdom in “missing the mark” having consequence. Consequence that actually has a cost. And then, a cost that someone else is willing to pay.
When someone gives you a gift, do you just tear into it and find all the faults? Or do you stop and consider that there was cost to this gift. Perhaps cost you cannot (or don’t want to?) fathom.
@griz talking to me about the gift’s cost rather meaningless… bogus if you really think about it, because it was fully known, calculated, predicted, predetermined, and seen to be unavoidable in eternity past. If you know the who, what, where, why, how, & how much of an event, and you didn’t intervene to change history or figure out how to avoid it, no one has any obligation to do anything except scoff at the ludicrous concept. If nothing existed, there’d be no cost, no evil to atone for. It’s not trying to outthinking anything… it’s pure, cold, hard logic.
@Jear77 That is the proper place to exercise the imagination of what if you could do all things, and chose to experience something that is the very antithesis of your nature for the sake of a little minor species like Humanity?
One can get so occupied devaluing the gift and ferreting out reasons to bolster bitterness that elegant and loving interpretations are either missed or shat upon out-of-hand..
Even if there were lineups of people wanting to give you jobs and riches they would think twice about engaging such a bitter and ungrateful spirit .
@griz potential employers would have to get to the point of contacting me before they could complain about me not a proper spirit. I’m 100% sure you could have been in Chicago and talked to me at my job and you would never know it was me who posted these things, as i keep my nose clean. I’m a nondescript cog. Similarly, no company would ever guess in a million years it was me.
@Jear77 Perhaps. But if one does not believe in things spiritual it can be hard to explain just what aspects of a person’s life and their “presentation” even before the first moments of conversation affect the world around them.
There’s already the aspect of bad spirit that could fit into the lay category of “bad luck” whereby it snowballs. Just as good luck can and often does snowball. There’s an “attraction of energy” — both positive and negative.
Now if there WAS such a thing take a look at your “mind” and ask yourself which might be more attracted — more at home — in you right now?
@griz what’s that got to do with the price of tea in China? (The topic at hand)
@Jear77 The idea that the “spirit” (the meaning, or lack thereof) that one chooses to essentially “program” themselves with, causes noticeable effect beyond the self, both verbally and non-verbally.
And an invite to consider which process might have become one’s “natural state” — attracting more of that state in a process that one might soon not be consciously aware of.
@griz there are times i even hired an outside company to do my resume, cover letter where i had basically no imput. The only input i was attaching and clicking send. Still same results.
@Jear77 Well that would get into an un-resolvable speculation of just how “deep” spirit goes. Does it affect what information one gives to “the professionals” to generate “the product” one tries to sell? Does it affect where one sends the finished product.
While I’m not down on the idea of a self-directed path to an end goal, I cannot count the number of times the path I reasoned out was not the best one to the goal sought.
And “spirit” plays into that in ways that are hard to pin down with a recipe or equation.
(Which interestingly, is NOT saying, “If you just get your spirit in order you will get a job”. Your “best possible path” may involve something else — but that will not become apparent until your spirit is in order).
@griz i told them to use others’ examples. They had carte blanche. So long as it had my skills (basically only rhe info i gave them) it was good. So you’re saying even the examples they took from were thus contaminated? Bullshit. I would bet $1 million of my future earnings that MOST of the people who hire these types of companies get jobs.
@Jear77 Relying upon others to “invent us” can so easily go both ways — and totally outside of our realm of even marginal control.
“Getting a job” can just as easily mean getting a bad job. And it’s debatable whether a bad job is better than no job at all. It pays the bills, but also imprisons one.
But then with your specific example, where must “the fault” lie? In the hired professionals? In the companies who hired someone else? In the capitalistic free-market system? In the physical fabric of reality? In consummate God?
Or might we need to make a more suitable bargain with the future and train ourselves up into a career who’s demands and goal posts are not likely to change before our training is complete?
Ah, let’s blame the very nature of reality! (Because then it’s not our job to change that, but just to carp about it!)
I do try to change reality sometimes, but when reality outshines my attempts to change it, I do give in. I accept the “is” as it is. Go with the flow.
Someday, I will try again to get Immortal Pirate’s late wife’s purse out of our dining room, and the basket of her old underwear out of our bedroom, but for now, they remain. She died almost 8 years ago. It is the reality I live with.
“Reality” is a very subjective concept. I do believe in an objective reality. Much of what comprises of my view of objective reality is different from what comprises most of the inhabitants of the earth’s view of objective reality. Though, they have heard the rumors.
The problem is that reality comprises of multiple dimensions, and the controlling dimension, Heaven, is not typically able to be seen.
Objective reality can also be changed, albeit only by God.
Otherwise, within objective reality, there are a vast number of variables at play. Behind those variables are a wide range of other variables. And so on, and so on.
People do believe vast delusions, right now. Delusions which were created long ago, and have survived over millenia. These delusions have spawned newer delusions. And the delusions have fought in an economy of ideas, some dropping out, and being forgotten. Others being adapted to changing circumstances. So, what you have today is the equivalent of some dangerous bacteria which have extreme resistance to antibiotics. And, some viruses, which have learned to have maximum staying and spreading power.
These delusions, are not reality. They are pride inducing, and so blinding. Making the population believe they can do things, which they actually can not do. But, nothing has stopped them, so far. And the longer that has gone on, the higher the pride has risen. The wider and taller the prison.
@five2one We experience reality subjectively.
But the only way to not recognize the objective nature of reality is to become so owned (possessed) by ego (the “flesh”) that we start thinking everything is a function of us.
This is the delusion that robs us of our fullest meaningful participation in objective reality.
@griz People must be born again, to perceive objective reality. This is the same thing as the baptism of fire.
This is being born into the Kingdom.
The dissolution of the flesh, into spirit.
The second death. The spiritual death. The death of the ego, as you say.
@five2one I choose to act as if God and Jesus Christ are who the Bible represents them as because after traipsing through more spiritual and wisdom traditions than most would care to, it has become very obvious that the process you describe above comes about most effectively through those representations of Judeo-Christianity.
That is not saying that other spiritual belief and wisdom traditions don’t have their merit. But only the paradigm of Christ manifests that “death to self (ego) and birth into the Eternal Kingdom” in a timely and predictable fashion.
What takes gurus of other traditions a whole lifetime of solitary meditation to achieve, is achievable in Christ in such short order that it’s . . . miraculous.
(Both “the event” and “the on-going process”).
Everywhere! (OTR Trucker)
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