1. It is the foundational Cornerstone of any open Democratic Society.
2. All human societies naturally factionate into a left-wing and right-wing.
3. Both sides serve in the essential function of keeping the society both stable and adaptive.
4. Free and open dialogue is how this happens.

There is currently a rise in the volume, if not in the actual numbers of people tribalizing and isolating into extremist radical positions on the left and the right. Positions aimed at everything from sabotaging/withdrawing from the dialogue to actively sabotaging the cultural basis of the West (sanctity of the individual).

What are your thoughts on this?




52 Comments

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  1. luftballooneyegouge 5 months ago

    Meaningful……..
    ….sure, but when one finds oneself wasting their own time, it ceases to be meaningful & becomes counterproductive.

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    • Author
      griz 5 months ago

      @luftballooneyegouge
      How is nihilism meaningful and productive?

      How is avoiding engagement beyond one’s own group echo chamber meaningful and productive?

      Insisting that the other tribe has nothing meaningful to say is the Clarion Cry of War

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      • luftballooneyegouge 5 months ago

        @griz
        How is pretending I said something that I didn’t, a path to an open dialog?

        How is pretending I said something that I didn’t, anything other than a waste of time?

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @luftballooneyegouge
        What one says is important. But what one does is very much more important. It is a far truer indication of one’s core beliefs.

        Routinely branding almost every exercise of intellectual discussion as a waste of time . . . Speaks very very loudly.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz can intellectual discussion even happen when excludes the tenets of logic and science? Lots of discussion boils down to “i hold this fallacy.”

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        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Intellectual discussion needs to accept that in their current forms, neither human logic nor human science is an Almighty.

        But that should not excuse us from making our best effort possible under current conditions.

        Even if there are ‘an infinite number of ways to interpret any finite system’ (Derrida), there are only a very small set of viable interpretations leading to desirable and repeatable results over time.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz the problem occurs when you stretch, skew, shove, force, lop off those things that don’t fit into other’s world views into your own. You make their views into that which it is not.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        If the worldview is the greatest enduring Truth possible, repeatable Through Time . . . The only thing that needs to be discarded is the lie that keeps this from happening.

        The only reason someone’s worldview would not have to change, is if they suffer the delusion that they are the Almighty.

        This is all there in the book that you had in your hands so many times. But religion kept you from seeing it.

        But rather than looking to transcend religion (ideology) the temptation is there to stretch skew shove force and lop off even points of great Truth that don’t match the chosen view of self as Almighty.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz uh, how can i not know i’m mortal, flawed, limited, etc. after having said i am such.
        And yet for all the power at their disposal, the literal one who created everything, the people who hold to these truths still have major problems in their lives. And these problems are compounded by their belief. Sounds… wrong.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Belief in religion does tend to compound these things. Blind faith in a human construct can only go so far before it collapses.

        Beyond knowing of our weaknesses the path splits into taking responsibility for ourselves in the current situation to the best of our ability . . . And looking to project blame.

        Even onto God and Life itself.

        Sorry buddy. It’s a harsh truth. It’s really no wonder we are so motivated to avoid it at any and all costs.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz no matter what you think, it’s blind faith until you’re willing to do whatever it takes to see the truth in its full scope in eternity… even to the point of suicide, which isn’t acceptable. And this life will never cut it!

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        But the path that you never found in religion spins off a lot of very valid usable truths in the now: as well as a way of living that proofs one against the bitterness and resentment of our current existential reality. It’s a path that advocates for personal responsibility and competence.
        (Which actually ties into the bio-evolutionary processes within our brains)

        It is quite like a relationship. It starts with nothing but blind faith but then builds over time into something far greater.

        That it never did with religion so many try to leverage to their advantage, is in no way proof that there isn’t something else there beyond religion to fellowship with.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz there are too many things missing for it to be one

        1. It is based on power. I don’t do the whole power play mentality. Any non-slave/ servant relationship needs to be based on equals. This can never be. I am so far past this it isn’t funny.

        2. A relationship is based in physically being there, at least in this day and age. Anyone who doesn’t is “catfishing” – which means dragging the oerson along with the hope of something more. The victim of such a scheme spends emotional energy, money, and time waiting for the scam artist to be there. And this lines up *exactly* with the Christian experience in that they have been waiting for the return of Jesus for millennia!

        3. Relationships are based on trust and communication. How can you trust something that cannot and will not communicate with you directly, prove itself within the boundaries of science, and is fickle, doesn’t give benefit of the relationship if somehow you fail to live up to its expectations (i.e. hell, there are a variety of scriptures that say “you thought you were chosen, you thought you following, but failed in this aspect.”)

        These ideas only scratch the surface of the reasons why it fails miserably

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Before looking at what you claim is missing, turn your eye to what you’ve gained on your current path: bitter resentment and miserable disenfranchisement. Not to mention a host of mental illnesses that inevitably come when we know we’re not living up to our full potential. A lot there worth holding onto,yes?

        1. Not everything is about power. Only Marxism sees the world is nothing but power games. That’s why it cannot help spinning into murderous tyranny.
        What equality is there between a parent and a child? The whole Equity boondoggle is toxic feminism hinged upon virtue signaling rather than anything relating to maternal compassion. (Which BTW, is socially destabilizing outside of the maternal context)

        2. We’ve already talked about the inaccurate scriptural representation of that religion you sold your soul to. The Kingdom of Heaven began the microsecond Christ paid the price for all. That’s why the second Thief was the first citizen of that Kingdom.
        While physical relationships are a good analogy for the spiritual relationship we have with Christ, insisting that this must be exactly equatable to a physical relationship only leads to our trying to fuck with God for our own Glory.
        And while we’re on the topic of purely physical relationship we need to consider our not living up to our physical relationship with Life by not doing everything we can to fulfill our full potential I had a keyboard crash and will have to reboot and continue this in another post

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz 1. If not everything is based upon power, why would a misstep in a single point send people to hell? Why would those who sincerely tried, but were too busy, poor, or simply couldn’t for some reason or another be called “goats”? For instance, in this day and age, people beg for money. Most of the time these people are only wanting money for drugs and/ or alcohol. I won’t support such a person. Why is there no flexibility, exceptions, no ability to talk with the judge to plead your case, no lawyers, no jury of one’s peers, etc for the final judgement? The lack of such things is incredibly damning in the “power play” caregory!

        To add further evidence, let’s examine the bible’s own words “greater things you will do” – only things that he allows. And this is called the “gift of the Holy Spirit” – a gift with limitations, asking “can i use this?” isn’t a gift at all, but a burden!

        The final thing i will talk about here is the very existence of hell. With god’s power, it’d mean nothing for satan to continue to be there. Yet only one afraid of another would purposely design a place of isolation, punishment, destruction for those that didn’t fit into his mold. And what’s worse is that it explicitly states that some are made for said destruction. If these things aren’t exercises of “i can do what i want because you’re beneath me, ” i don’t know what is!

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Choice and consequence.
        And an invite to interact with life on a level the rest of the animals cannot.

        Why would touching a hot stove burn you if your parents really loved you? Why would they have such a dastardly device — capable of scarring you for life — in your very home??

        There comes a point where we need to grow the hell up and stop thinking like a child.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz so you’ve finally admitted it. God will send those with diminished mental, emotional faculties… maybe even physical disabilities to hell (if you read everything forbidden in the old testament laws)

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        That sounds like an after-effect of legalistic Old Testament religion.

        Which is actually OK. You will not be a fully integrated person until you recognize and own the negative effect such man-made (and Scripturally-inaccurate) religions have on people. They cloud and conceal the True Way (Spirit-filled, vibrant, active) from the dead ossified regimes of legalism (“earning” one’s reward through acts).

        And the whole process of “sins forgiven” means that we CAN go back and choose to voluntarily do the “hero quest” for the fire-breathing dragon-of-chaos that is within us, defeat it and walk off with the treasure of a more fully integrated existence.

        And if we don’t CHOOSE to do this, we are at the mercy of the dragon-of-chaos whenever IT might choose to jump out and give us a hellish scorching.
        (Tie this into what you said about chaos revealing people’s “””true””” (darker, evil) self. Accurately put, it reveals the aspects of evil in them they have not voluntarily chosen to confront with the Light and properly integrate in their “whole” being. I have an exceedingly dark side. But it doesn’t have me. And in a strange sort of way, integrating it has made me far stronger than I ever imagined I could be.)

        Remember: there is a choice here between thinking this over . . . and just trying to defend against it. I hope you choose the former.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz you see… the idea of christ’s death as an atonement is completely bogus. Either people are worthy and should be forgiven (or not have their thoughts, words, deeds, or the things left undone held against them) automatically, without sacrifice, without atonement of any kind… or they are not. If not, christ died in vain. In saying that his creation was “very good” god is saying the former. In saying that we are sick, warped, twisted, unable to do anything of ourselves, it is saying the latter. The alternative would be to say some are chosen as worthy – either at birth or before existence came to be – but at that point christ’s death was still useless. A message that can’t even be coherent in its ideology shouldn’t be trusted.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Actually it’s the ultimate hero archetype and has tremendous value mythologically, psychologically and spiritually.

        We are “rendered” worthy by accepting the ability for it to happen AND willingly participating (not in religion silly, but in the process of fellowship with the very Spirit of Life. No resume of “deeds accomplished” is a substitute for this — just as they are not in any fellowship or relationship).

        It is almost exactly as with an infant. They really have no “worth” (competency, responsibility, experience, accomplishment) in the present, but represent great potential. And mentally/emotionally healthy parents grant them this.
        One doesn’t “hold this against them” (please escape this childish notion). But it is recognized that in the proper time they need to make a decision to participate with the larger unit, according to the pre-existing rules — or languish as an isolated, bitter, resentful and eventually murderous entity.

        What God proclaimed was “Good” was the speaking of the Logos into the Chaos to create habitable space, and then populate it with Life. But choice and free will means that we have to accept the responsibility from that point forward — recognizing that we have the freedom to make things heavenly or hellish. That is why these responses are “good”. They represent the Logos speaking truthfully into the Chaos unto the potential of habitable Order. But anyone’s choice not to receive them as “good”, casts them on a different path than the one unto Life.

        Your worth is in your potential. But piss that potential against the wall with slave and victimhood thinking and you never achieve that potential.

        And there are no toxic spoiling mothers or nanny-state to step in and grant us the “credit of worth” as if we are babies again. (save for Marxism — and then that’s a fare sight worse than an empty promise: it’s a catastrophic lie).

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz i define my potential. No thanks.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Incorrect.

        You only choose that which you will exercise/manifest.

        Most people have far far more than they ever choose to express.

        The self-limiters on this are something akin to the same evil trinity that Cain fell to: resentment arrogance and deceit.

        They are the “predatory thing” God told Cain had invited into his house and exercised creative union with unto the birth of something Unholy (the murder of the high ideal he resented had not worked for him when done in a way his ego felt was suitable)

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz And this is the selfsame god that won’t even give his people full use of the power they are given? makes no sense. It’d be like having electricity and needing to call the light company for permission to plug in your TV. Or call the water company for permission to turn on your tap. Don’t you see the disconnect? Look at the power the Silver Surfer was given: no need for food. elements uneffecting him. power blasts for protection. flight. (innate) Healing. And these are from the power cosmic as a gift from galactus. God is supposed to be more powerful that that. And christians get none of these.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @jear77
        Self-professed fools and Hypocrites need to be protected from themselves!
        :wink:

        Like it or not there remains a proper way to do things. And that is rarely the way of egotistic convenience or expedience.

        But fools persist in trying just the way of their ego; and when it doesn’t work every one is to blame except for themselves.

        In some extreme cases even the very fabric of reality is to blame! :wink:

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz you avoided everything i said!

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        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Actually it cuts to the very heart of what you said.

        You tried using this self-justifying line of sophistry before and I’ve approached it point for point to no effect. So it’s time to start looking at the very heart of things

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77

        Look again.
        It cut to the very heart of several of your responses without wading into the exact same excuses and sophistries I’ve successfully addressed numerous times before.

        I know it’s not the response you crave or were expecting.

        But it may be the one you need.
        Be brave and unpack it.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz no time now. Maybe when $ comes.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Self-professed fools and hypocrites need protection from themselves! :wink:

        Like it or not there are proper and improper ways to do things. And Life [evolution] judges them impassionately by your Scotsman’s fallacy! :rolf:

        Very few of the proper paths involve self-serving ego, ease, convenience or expediency in the moment.

        But fools persist in them and then try to blame everyone except themselves when they don’t work AND they end up bitter and resentful.
        Even murderous: mistakenly believing that death is the only god that can bring meaning.

        You’ve Incorporated some very toxic shit there. Are you still enjoying worshiping it?

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz i don’t understand how what you say has relevance to what i said. Talking in riddles only results in confusion

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz actually for #2, you just may have that wrong. What if instead of the kingdom of heaven waiting for that microsecond, it existed before the foundation of the world, and every single person who would be saved had their name written before the world existed? According to some theology, christ died twice; once before the world was created as the initial sacrifice of atonement, and again on Calvary.
        And I do stand by the concept that the bible’s statement of Christ coming again is the largest and longest catfishing scam in the world. It lures innocent people into its clutches. The people involved in this scam spend time in preparing for worship (i.e. they set up a worship plan), to get money in the form of tithes from the people who attend the service. This money ends up in the pockets of the ministers. Some of the money goes to help the less fortunate. Still more of the money goes to the running of the building, the lights, the gas, the water. But what service are the ministers providing? A feel good message of “you are forgiven?” Even if people are not good, there’s no need of any level forgiveness that shouldn’t be granted automatically. The idea of the bible is “you are irredeemably damaged beyond repair from birth, you can’t do anything good; therefore you need these rules or this unproven relationship.” I don’t agree. An admonishment to do better? People will either improve on their own or not… it’s not up to you (or me) or anyone else to berate them for not having their act together. None of these things appeal to me.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        What group asserts this?

        And what power do you think they hope to achieve through it?

        We’ve already established that religion’s concept of many many things is likely wrong, even unto being downright unscriptural.

        If you’ve left it behind as faulty then don’t keep returning to it hunting for self-justification!

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz do a google search christ foundation of the world. That phrase shows up several times throughout the new testament. But the point is this whether he died twice or not, or simply volunteered to do so: things were (or at lease *seem* to have been) set long before his death with foreknowledge.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz now you’re giving me blank replies!

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        An artifact of interrupted signal.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        That there is structure and intent to existential reality seems self-evident. That what we view as the Big Bang was a death-resurrection event for Christ, not so much. It seems more like a procreational event through what is called the Logos.
        To our current understanding that seems something akin to speaking truth into the chaos to create habitable order.

        The self-sacrificing hero and regenerating Phoenix archetypes are manifestations of human understanding and emotional motivation.

        Is a God entity tied to them? Or just making use of what we can understand and relate to? Does the good parent not speak truth into the childish Chaos unto the creation of a more mature order?

        That we advance into Fuller Life by sacrificing the dead parts of us that are holding us back, would seem axiomatic and archetypal. You have to sacrifice that which is wrong to get to that which is right.

        Anyone who is not an ideologue experiences this frequently in their life at what could be called low resolution.

        Just how high resolution can it go? Only the brave Heroes who are willing to risk everything, will ever know.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz i understand the mythos behind the ideas. But that has little/ nothing to do with real life. We don’t see truly dead, as in burned, drown, cut to pieces, death from various diseases, brain dead people walking around. And with jesus’ words of “greater things” Christians should be able to walk into a graveyard and command all the dead there to be alive (again)

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        Go behind the mythos to the ethos.

        There are deeply profound archetypical tie-ins to real life.

        That’s why the writings have persisted for so long and vexed so many who just wanted to splash around on the egotic surface.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz there’s no deeper.

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        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        That’s Pride that says “everything that needs to be know I know.”

        Every Mythos has an ethos.

        It is also one of the major markers of the inauthenticity ( orca Kierkegaard, Freud, Nietzsche, Jung, Heidegger)

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz Ok… If it has more, it doesn’t matter in my daily life.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        I came across something in my reading last night. I don’t know if you’re ready to hear it but I’ll share it anyway.

        The mindset that says I already know everything that I need to know to get by in my daily life, is at the core of every totalitarian outbreak.

        If the average citizens were not saying this, none of those horrific regimes would have gained enough steam in their infancy, to have required the deaths of hundreds of millions to put them down.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz if such a thing happened, my mindset and experiences allows me to adapt to it, whatever it might be. But wealth would certainly assist in said transition.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        It certainly has its appeals.

        And cautions.

        As with the Ring of Power Frodo carried, those who were assured they could wield it wisely . . . proved the most vulnerable to corruption.

        Do you remember the spell Dumbledore put on the Philosopher’s Stone?

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz i didn’t read that far into the series.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        3. We’ve also talked at lengths about how the addiction to scientism can have us thinking empirical truths (what stuff is made of) are the only truths.

        Let’s go on your analogy of relationships. Scientifically prove such a thing exist. Not the corollary physical after-effects but the actual phenomenon.
        How about love? Trust? Purpose? Meaning? Responsibility? Honor? Nobility? Integrity?

        The mish mosh of ideologies you keep trying to stand upon, keep leaving you in sinking sand.

        It’s perhaps time to let them go and try something else. Start by accepting that you had no fellowship with God; only with the religious ideology.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz No true scottsman fallacy… AND for someone else to boot!

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        It’s more an evolutionary process.
        Evolution selects for that which works.

        If it doesn’t work it was the wrong process.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz Or maybe i had, but simply gave up.

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      • Author
        griz 5 months ago

        @Jear77
        It’s a good thing that the single sperm that gave rise to you didn’t subscribe to this philosophy!

        Only someone who takes everything for granted can justify pissing it all up against the wall.

        Overcoming toxic upbringing is not easy. But it is almost always worthwhile.

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      • Jear77 5 months ago

        @griz the price i have set on my soul won’t be paid.

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