Try thinking beyond the relatively recent religious construct of Heaven.

Before religious institutions existed, our distance ancestors discovered the concept of the future as “something better that could come out of this imperfect present moment” (where all of the other unconscious animals exist).

They looked transcendentally, above and beyond self, creating increasingly-organized societies and cultures; and came up with visions of Peace Unity Joy Continuance and Love.

It’s been suggested that any positive looking to the future is inevitably going to bump into the archetype of Heaven, even if just as a wiishful thought.

My question is: do you think the religious concept of Heaven dissuades people from exploring this concept from any other context?




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  1. immortal_pirate 1 week ago

    The concept of Heaven is actually pretty much universal in all humanoid cultures. Even pagan cultures have an after life belief. Valhalla, in Norse mythology, is the Warriors Paradise, where only the brave who died in battle reside. Granted it is a polytheistic religion with multiple gods and goddesses with a main God (Odin) above all of the lessor gods. The ancient Greeks and Romans had similar gods and goddesses, with a central God to rule the lessors. The common thread of all of these deity belief systems is a concept of a heavenly after life where the souls of the worthy will reside forever one day.
    Christianity as we know it has a Heaven concept as well, where the faithful will be rewarded a place in Gods Kingdom one day.
    All earthly religions are derived from the Sumerian and Vedic texts which pre-date even the Genesis story. Many Asian religions are based on the Vedic texts of prehistory India, which pre-date even the Sumerian texts, and may have been from those who helped destroy my home world thousands of years ago. The Anunnaki and Vedas were at odds with each other, but that is another story for another time. Suffice it to say, they both had a Heaven/ Hell after life concept.

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    • Author
      griz 7 days ago

      @immortal_pirate
      At its simplest the heaven concept is simply “looking up”, at something Transcendent to reach for.
      And the greater the reach the better our overall progress.

      Without this we simply spiral down to a zero sum equation; where we can never be anything greater than death.

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  2. Jear77 1 week ago

    If that were the case, everyone would be automatically granted a free pass to enter, because this world is hell!

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    • Author
      griz 1 week ago

      @Jear77
      This world is what we make it. And we could still make it a Heaven if we wanted to, more than we wanted to make it a hell.

      I seriously doubt the concept of Heaven works off a “participation trophy” or “victimhood” process!

      (Allegedly Cain tried this with God many thousands of years ago and it didn’t fly. How dense would we have to be to still be trying the same and expecting different outcome?)

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      • Jear77 1 week ago

        @griz really? Aren’t you the one who’s always saying that we shouldn’t complain about not being able to shape the world with God’s power? If it literally is what we make it, i would reshape things to be vastly different! Yet do i have that power? No.

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      • Author
        griz 7 days ago

        @Jear77
        The world we shape with God’s power is first and foremost our own internal world.
        And yes you have that power available to you — but no amount of “religious performance” can access it.

        But once we are in proper alignment internally with the Spirit of Life, that starts affecting the extrinsic world around us unto Life.
        Our internal alignment is the originating phenomena. It affecting the world beyond us is the epiphenomena

        But if we don’t get that internal alignment first, we become agents of death: first internally and then externally.

        It’s why people experience bitterness and resentment. They’ve never aligned beyond the meaning of just self.

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      • Jear77 7 days ago

        @griz can that power buy anything, feed the hungry, give jobs to the unemployed, cure disease, etc. without any other effort on our part? There are serious problems in the world… a power that can (or will) not do these things in and of itself is less than worthless.

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      • Author
        griz 5 days ago

        @Jear77
        It is the only currency for all of the many enduring things money cannot buy.

        And while there are exceptions like Jeremiah and John the Baptist, those who use this power to get their internal house in order tend to prosper in almost everything they do.

        So is the assertion that anything that does not cater to me according to my will is useless??

        That’s a huge evolutionary step backwards.

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      • Jear77 5 days ago

        @griz the exceptions prove it’s unreliable, fickle.

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      • Author
        griz 5 days ago

        @Jear77
        How many positive (creative) processes in life can you name that are inevitable and guaranteed?

        Part of competency is the ability to sort the optimal paths from the sub-optimal paths.

        More people succeed from getting their own internal world in order first, than those who don’t bother.

        And as an added detriment those who don’t bother have enough time energy and latent guilt to do a real number on themselves, loved ones and the world around then.

        Evolution designed us to carry a weight of adult responsibilities. We spin pathological when we refuse to pick it up.

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      • Jear77 5 days ago

        @griz yet if this were completely true, no one who was even mildly competent would have even half of the problems/ headaches the “average Joe” does. To name a few: unemployment, health issues/ problems, money woes, relationship problems. The list goes on and on.

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      • Author
        griz 4 days ago

        @Jear77
        Adult responsibility is taking on this list and doing what one can to make it better and not worse.

        Failing to pick up adult responsibilities and develop one’s competency as a sovereign individual . . . Makes both the individual and the society far worse.

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      • Jear77 4 days ago

        @griz this is not true either. There are a variety of things that one can be competent in… and the only place it nets you is a jail cell! And sometimes it’s not what you do, but how you do it (even competently) that gets you there!

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      • Author
        griz 3 days ago

        @Jear77
        It is totally true.

        Show me how criminal activity is exercising responsibility and competency in life.

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      • Jear77 3 days ago

        @griz see the vulture in spiderman homecoming

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      • Author
        griz 3 days ago

        @Jear77
        The path he chose increased misery to himself his loved ones and society.

        He is the anti-hero, demonstrating an irresponsible and incompetent way of interacting with life.

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      • Jear77 3 days ago

        @griz maybe i associate with the villian/ anti-hero because they’re not willing to play by the rules, bending, breaking them as they see to do so. It goes back to my philosophy for tabletop RPGs games: the system doesn’t matter. In a very real sense the *rules* themselves don’t even matter, as they can be adjusted, adapted, changed to suit the group playing.

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      • Author
        griz 2 days ago

        @Jear77
        Groups can amend the rules to their liking. But one needs to remember that life is far far more complicated than an RPG.

        The pesky thing about societal structure and its rules . . . Is that they are time-tested over hundreds of thousands of years. And their being successful over such a time span is saying something.
        Like it or not we are the beneficiaries of all of those dead rules. Human society would not be here if not for them.

        The heroic archetype is to breathe new life into the old dead structure upon which we all live and stand.

        The anti-hero archetype is to say “I don’t like this so I’m going to recklessly trash it all”.

        And then we have nothing left to stand upon.

        It is profound that those groups who feel they have been “thrown away”, retaliate with an ultimate form of throwaway thinking.

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      • Jear77 2 days ago

        @griz are they truly tested? Or is it that people don’t wish ridicule and scorn and “toe the line”? And those groups who feel as if they’ve been thrown away… at least nowadays can choose to create their own societies, so they no longer have to follow the bigger social order’s rules.

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      • Author
        griz 1 day ago

        @Jear77
        Not sure why my first response to this didn’t show up.

        But yes.

        They are tested both by time and more importantly, by evolution.

        If they didn’t work we wouldn’t be here as the dominant species, taking all the benefits of this great society for granted so we could better obsess on the few points where it still doesn’t work well.

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      • Jear77 1 day ago

        @griz perhaps you’ve got it wrong. Perhaps we are only covering up our true selves, and it only takes a bit of chaos to bring it forth, hence spontaneous riots/ looting, people fighting when the circumstances would dictate that we must work together, and differences in paradigm, when one should win.

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      • Author
        griz 22 hours ago

        @Jear77
        There is the possibility that evolution doesn’t “get it wrong”: it just “is” or “is not”. (And “is not” just becomes oblivion)

        Throughout Human History it has generally been “enlightened individuals” that led the march to civility. To be “enlightened” to any degree touches on what Carl Jung called “the integration of the shadow”.
        Only when one truly knows the darkness within and puts it in it’s proper place (integration, not denial or repression), do they have the strength to NOT let that evil come spilling out when the chaos might rise.

        Remember the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment? All it took was 6 days of simulated chaos for the average kind fatherly Joe to act in keeping with a prison guard of a repressive regime — AND think themselves justified in it!
        It ties into the reality that if we all had lived in Nazi Germany, we would either be full-fledged Nazis, collaborators, or enablers. And had we lived in Marxist Russia, we would either be the NKVD, or consigned to the Gulag Archipelago (ie, dead).

        The ONLY proof against this, would seem to be to voluntarily do the archetypal “hero’s quest” to find the fire-breathing dragon-of-chaos within, defeat it, and walk off with the great treasure. That treasure, being a fuller personal integration between the light and the shadow that meets in us all.

        Most people like to just nurse the delusion that they “are good”; but when chaos looms (mobs and riots are good examples), it is not “their true self” that comes out, but just the part of themselves that they have not bothered integrating (ie, denied, repressed). To call this “true self” would be to say 1/2 is the whole.
        “Partial-people Syndrome”.

        So why don’t more people do this? It takes extraordinary effort. It’s messy. It’s scary. And worse, it brings the horrendously devious “icky feelings” — which apparently are a far more pernicious plague than the cooties were in grade-schools of the 70’s.

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      • Jear77 21 hours ago

        @griz that experiment, by recent reading has been called into question. They say that it’s invalid because the instructor encouraged the behavior. Maybe a people downtrodden, oppressed / repressed from a recent war / economically devastating time would be more susceptible to it, but overall it’s not quite what you think – and in today’s society of cellphones being everywhere, I would think that things would turn out differently in today’s society. I know the followup electroshock learning experiment about / recent game show on the same premises, but that’s a different animal. Person claimed they had a heart condition. In this day and age, stop, call 911, get an ambulance to the scene and have the person running the experiment arrested! Even if they were able to explain what was happening, they’d still be in legal trouble, maybe even get fined for the trouble to emergency personnel. An authority figure should be seen to be bogus when people’s lives are in danger. That’s the 1st sign of an experiment. At least in retrospect.
        In regards to the statement of goodness… I know full well I am not, but it is what it is. Why cry over being evil? It’s nothing to me, as at day’s end (and i’ve said this dozens of times) people do what they must, as do i.

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      • Author
        griz 19 hours ago

        @Jear77
        One of the main reasons it’s called into question is that nobody dares to repeat it due to current social “sensibilities and senstivities”. (It was a pretty dastardly deconstructionist exercise of the primitive Human psyche).
        Another reason is that it seemed to point out a very uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that works to sabotage preferred emotional constructs.

        I believe you yourself argued in another thread for just how close to the surface our evil nature is? That in essence, is “a psychological incongruity” that invites closer examination if one’s drive is to be more fully integrated as a person.

        Consider that in every evil regime that took over the first things that wer denied people was the ability to call for help (one EMP would cook all our cellphones and infrastructure, and the need to decide in the moment whether to live as a part of something consummately evil, or take the ultimate risk standing for what is good.

        Because few people have actively voluntarily explored and integrated their dark side, most people would elect to express themselves as something evil. (Just look what happens in riots, mob mentality, and SJW groups!)

        I would count a huge difference between not just crying over one’s having an evil component . . . and actively engaging and incorporating it with the Light as the guiding principle.
        That means one has a LOT more power and freedom to decide “what they must do”.

        Prime example, is the ultimate Samurai. They know they are capable of great destruction. But because “the evil” is fully integrated, they have FAR more options of NOT unleashing it.

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      • Jear77 18 hours ago

        @griz things are structured WAY differently in a REAL prison. And even in an evil regime you’d still have people (LOTS in fact) that would still have weapons. If all the guns were taken then knives and slingshots are used. Or even baseball bats. Heck, even food is a weapon, in the right hands! would they take melons away because they could be lobbed? And it’s not necessarily that most people would express themselves in such a matter… it’s just that SOME people would choose to do so. The reality is that maybe 1/10th of 1% would actually do so. There’s a word, it escapes me, but the definition is is “what is happening recently people put a greater emphasis on and seem to think happens way more than it actually does.” In regards to “doing what I must” – i decide that on a moment by moment basis, which is why preparation is vital.

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    • immortal_pirate 1 week ago

      @Jear77 The path you follow…

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      • Jear77 1 week ago

        @immortal_pirate one of the big differences i’d make is all paths allowed. None turned away.

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      • Author
        griz 7 days ago

        @Jear77
        That may work for children in the short-term.

        But adults need to exercise competency and shoulder the burden of existence to mature into our full potential.

        That’s why we limit the power children can exercise. Otherwise they will end up hurting themselves and others.

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      • Jear77 7 days ago

        @griz perhaps responsibility isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be.

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      • Author
        griz 5 days ago

        @Jear77
        Those who fail to shoulder it do tend to turn bitter then resentful then murderous (to self and or others).

        Behavioral indications are that responsibility is exactly what it’s cracked up to be.

        But it takes effort and growing competency. And the Devouring Mother archetype that grips our society preaches that effort is oppressive (everything should just be given to you) as it lustily devours any competence that may manifest.

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      • Jear77 5 days ago

        @griz it’s a monster akin to fire: it has an infinite appetite for more compentency. But what happens as you age? Our senses dim, our memory faulters, our strength and speed. As time goes on, we are forced to cede it – either by necessity or by law. Why take it on in the 1st place?

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      • Author
        griz 4 days ago

        @Jear77
        Because if we don’t we never achieve our full potential.

        And growing bitter resentful and murderous isn’t a very nice prosesi either!

        This is why I’ve asked if you’ve been exposed to toxic femininity. Theirs is the cry of, “Why bother exercising personal responsibility and competence?”

        Then it gobbles up all the goodness of the sovereign individual and gives you a cookie.

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      • Jear77 4 days ago

        @griz let me ask tou this: if you (not some alternate version, you as you are today) knew you were going blind (physically) and there was basically 2 things you could do: do things as you do now, and lose your vision, do things that would increase the likelihood of you going blind sooner, or easing up, with the possibility of keeping your eyesight. Responsibility, compentency to me seems the middle option. And i was recently diagnosed with possible glaucoma, irl for reference.

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      • Author
        griz 3 days ago

        @Jear77
        I have a friend who is blind: a botched operation when she was a teen and the doctor has now passed away.

        We’ve spent a lot of time going over things over the years. It’s hard not to dream of what could have been in such a situation. She held onto that for a lot of years and spun her wheels.

        Now she accepts the reality that is hers. She trained herself up in a career that she could do from home and is relatively self-sufficient. She is one of the more competent and responsible people I know. She’s actually a bit of a local hero.

        And she does it without vision.

        With possible glaucoma there are perhaps things you could do to accelerate or forestall it. They are probably worth exploring.

        But I doubt any of them has to do with avoiding responsibility for, or competence with the hand one has been dealt.

        For myself personally I would rather retain my responsibility and competency such as is possible, regardless of what cards Life deals me.

        Because I know they are the keys to overcoming.
        I have a good example of this in my biological mother as well. She faced a shorter but more functional life on powerful meds and faced a horrific death from side effects . . . Over a longer life of bedridden dependency.

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      • Jear77 3 days ago

        @griz maybe a more appropriate analogy would be Russian roulette. The more responsibility, the more compentency one seeks the more chambers there are, and the more bullets there are. When a chamber that so happens to have a bullet in it fires, the more disasterous the outcome, even if death somehow is avoided.

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      • Author
        griz 3 days ago

        @Jear77
        My thought is that life should be far more than a foolish leisure pursuit.

        Why not an analogy of strapping on an explosive vest, sticking a knife into an electrical socket or baiting a mother Grizzly with cubs??

        It is a warning sign if most of one’s heroes and analogies rely on foolish and disfunctional processes.

        (You used one yesterday of someone who was “competent” in criminal anti-social activities)

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      • Jear77 3 days ago

        @griz i never implied that i wanted a life of pure leisure. What i want to do takes effort. And it just so happens to be something i enjoy. But i need wealth to do so. But I’m not going to wait until retirement to do so.

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      • Author
        griz 2 days ago

        @Jear77
        “Foolish leisure” was in direct response to the Russian Roulette analogy.

        Learning to shoulder the existential burden of life is probably the first task you should apply your efforts towards.

        Because not doing this arguably has a direct causal relationship with your finding yourself unemployable.

        Most employers screening applicants for higher level jobs are either consciously or subconsciously vetting against people who show indications of not having have their life together; who are not willing to shoulder adult responsibility for the life they find themselves in.

        And a sudden influx of cash into a life that is not properly put together is just another tragic episode of “How winning the lottery ruined my life”.

        First things first. We may not be able to do anything in this second to make ourselves richer. But we can do a lot of things in this second to get our life in better order.

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      • Jear77 2 days ago

        @griz you may be way more wrong in my specific case than you think. Those lives that fall (fell) apart lacked the one thing i have: a crystal clear vision of what i want to do. Even you lack that.

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      • Author
        griz 1 day ago

        @Jear77
        While each of us has a rather unique “specific case”, there are human axioms that we just cannot escape from.

        Even a crystal clear vision of “what we want”, means nothing if all the rest of reality doesn’t comply! It’s good to have a plan. But one of those pesky human axioms might be that all the crystal-clear visions will mean nothing if we don’t have the personal assets to still overcome even if those plans go awry.

        I forget who, but someone on-group recently posted a thread about “The best-laid plans of mice and men” . . . :wink:

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      • Jear77 1 day ago

        @griz yet if you have a vision, stick with it, and let nothing cause you to waiver, oftentimes, the fact that you stuck it to the end wins the day. That’s 99.9% of the battle.

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      • Author
        griz 22 hours ago

        @Jear77
        There’s a necessary balance between sticking with a vision, and knowing when The Universe says “No”. Or “Not now”. Or “Not that way”.

        And there’s incalculable value in being able to deal with this without growing bitter and resentful and retaliatory against “The Universe”.

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      • Jear77 21 hours ago

        @griz even if the universe says no, or not that way, or not now… there are people out there who will change the entire universe, the timing to make it happen. The goal is to find those people!

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      • Author
        griz 19 hours ago

        @Jear77
        It is often not worth the bitter resentment waiting for such messiahs to come along.

        Most people find they have to make a life with what is right there before them.

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      • Jear77 18 hours ago

        @griz Did Washington, Lincoln, Edison, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs or literally any other founder of a major corporation do so? They may have struggled, but they kept at it, working until they got what they wanted.

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  3. immortal_pirate 7 days ago

    Heavenly humor…

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