How is it manifest?
Would you consider yourself a courageous person?
Courage is the ability to act with confidence in the light of uncertainty.
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@Jear77 Well said…
@Jear77 I wonder is that would change much if we changed confidence to competence?
That would involve a degree of wisdom that would preclude confidently charging off a cliff for no reason or benefit, as “courageous”. (It would just remain something stupid, and not for emulation).
@griz you sometimes lack competency at the moment, developing it only after doing. Otherwise children would be cowardly.
@Jear77 Society accepts an exclusion of immaturity for children.
Traditionally not so much in adults. Though that has been changing in the past 50 years; and it would seem not to the species’ glory.
There is nothing noble or praise-worthy about an infantile adult.
@griz even adults must do to learn
@Jear77 Confidence is just mindset, and of itself accomplishes nothing.
Confidence comes from actually doing; and in learning to do it right.
Most people are afraid to even start. So afraid in fact that they will concoct mental mazes trying to ponder over that “right” is, or if it even exists! (And then the Minotaur gobbles them up).
That’s why your favorite ideology is such a popular one: it comes with the perfect non-starter excuse, and even provides an echo chamber where one can Lament The uselessness and meaninglessness of it all, just waiting for the Beast to consume them.
And depression become such a problem because our very evolved biology mandates us as hunters for Transcendence meaning sufficient to offset the existential realities of existence.
We evolved as aimers at high goals. And when we try to opt out of this our brain chemistry revolts unto all manner of Insidious self destructive processes.
Processes that will so possess us we will start making excuses for them.
@griz if you have confidence and fail you can get back up again to try again and again and again. If you have only competency and that fails… you can’t… because it failed… At that point, where do you have to go?
@Jear77 If confidence the mindset is a first step in developing competency, why would you presume competency devoid of confidence??
Especially if we were talking about something as complicated as life, and not just performing some robotic conditioned response.
Try thinking a bit more about your responses. Too often you seem over-anxious to dodge and weave around answers that are designed to help you out of the undesirable place you are in.
@griz Let’s change this just a bit. Let’s say someone who is SO competent in every area of their lives that they never experienced failure… and suddenly fails. Such failure would totally crush them, yes?
@Jear77 At first perhaps. That much is biological, triggered by low serotonin and high cortisol.
But a person would not rise to such a high level of competency without sufficient confidence to deal with disappointment and down-turn.
This ties onto the Biblical wisdom of Rom 5:3-5: that suffering creates the perseverance and character to regenerate, phoenix-like, no matter how burned to ashes we are by our encounter with the Dragon of Chaos. (Lapsing from Biblical to Archetypal to Mythological — for they all are related)
But ideologies and lifestyles of ease and avoiding the pain of learning, challenge, and undertaking heroic journeys into the unknown . . . leave one as weak and helpless to resist even the common “germs” of life, as a child growing up in a hand-and-surface-sanitized world.
The perversity of the pathogenic ideologies infecting the West particularly, is that the have their ideologues thinking themselves wise in avoiding the very aspects of courageous and heroic life that would proof them against the kinds of “suffering and meaninglessness” . . . that are causing them to suffer excessively and feel there is no meaning!
@griz some of it’s not rise. Some of it’s the luck of the draw with genetics, wealth, political power, etc, i.e. they were *born* into it.
@Jear77 While a few are born into luck and even fewer seem to enjoy it their whole life . . . I would echo the wisdom of Stephen Leacock: “I am a great believer in luck. And I find the harder I work the more of it I have!”.
While exceedingly few enjoy passive luck, almost everyone can enjoy active luck.
There’s actually a bio_chemical aspect to it . . . and a version of it is even mentioned by Jesus in Matt 3:12 (a difficult, often misunderstood and misinterpreted verse. It actually alludes to Price’ s Law and the Pareto Distribution that Marxist social constructionist have sacrificed hundreds of millions of lives in vain, to try to defeat.)
@griz I’ve read that verse before. When combined with verses talking about people being created for the sole purpose of destruction/ damnation, is it any small wonder that I would not wish to believe in such a deity, AND actively oppose such a being’s will should it exist?
@Jear77 But very close to these verses are the verses talking about how we can overcome this.
The person who doesn’t know what this is, is almost indistinguishable from the person who is “destined to be damned”. The person who knows the prescription but doesn’t apply it is already actively damning themselves. (And then the shame reaction will set them about desperately looking for reasons and excuses why they are justified in it).
And this very easily becomes a habit or an addiction. One that a person will actively refused to escape from no matter how many opportunities they are handed to break the cycle. You are being handed one right now. You say you lack the time energy or resources to avail yourself of it.
But consider how many resources you are expending trying to excuse it away and fend It off! You’ve created a destructive feedback loop. But we can choose to enact positive feedback loops too (going back to that same verse. You just spent a lot of energy trying to discount it when that energy could have been put into seeing the other versus around it that let you escape from it).
Go and reread what God said to Cain after he murdered his brother. Essentially, what is this Unholy thing that you have invited in and nurtured? Why would you do this to yourself, and then try to blame everyone and everything else??.
Cain had every marker of “destined to be damned”. Yet he escaped by ceasing to make excuses and doing something about it.
Pretending we have no responsibility for ourselves and where we end up in life, is indistinguishable from are choosing to be destined to be damned. (Calvinism fails in singling out the examples of people who chose to follow-through unto death while ignoring those who chose not to)
@griz not interested without everything. Completely worthless to me. since I am expected to give all… why isn’t my expectations of all in return appropriate? You would purchase something without knowing the price. Neither can i.
@Jear77 You have an unrealistic view of how Fellowship works.
Your original religious exploration failed because you were trying to treat it like a business transaction rather than a fellowship.
And in hindsight the only “all” that we have to give up to participate, are the more negative aspects of ego that just weigh us down anyway.
@griz Unrealistic or not… my costs are what I require. Giving up EVERYTHING I am to do this… the price I require is less than nothing. The ball’s in his court, if he exists.
@Jear77 You also have an unrealistic idea of what the scriptures are saying, perhaps linked to your difficulty in detecting analogy.
I will let you lead off on a study of what you fear the scriptures are saying you have to give up. Remember there is a significant difference between what we are willing to give up and what we are actually called upon to give up.
@griz nothing given to me personally, nothing sacrificedon my part.
@Jear77 Well, no scriptures. But you know to use them just to find fault is unbalanced?
I fully understand that you are not willing to make any sacrifice beyond your current comfort level. (Neither was Cain).
But I don’t understand the “nothing given to me personally”. Could you expand on this with a reference from scripture?
@griz not really. But i don’t ned it for my points: 1)the cube square law stayes when you double the area, you double the strength, but triple the volume. That’s why a spider or ant can lift many times its own weight, yet scale it up to the size of a skyscraper, it’d collapse under its own weight. The universe has gotten larger and larger since the beginning of time… which means with every passing second god, if it exists, is getting weaker and weaker. 2) In Steven R Donaldson’s series tales of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, god approaches Thomas saying that if he were to reach into the world it would shatter. So… either god is too weak… or strong. Or 3) everywhere gifts are talked about, they’re talked about groups of people… never anyone individually… never anything that is unique to the individual, unable to be replaced or repeated elsewhere, i.e. we’re more or less replaceable in the grand scheme of things, i.e. pawns
@Jear77 There is a flaw in trying to attach natural laws to a Supernatural phenomenon.
If you could it would no longer be Supernatural but just natural!
The very idea of God is that one cannot write an equation that would even begin to capture the essence.
The problem with just a religious conceptualization of God is that it is neither big enough nor small enough.
The conundrum of a supernatural God may be summed up with an assertion that God both can and cannot create a rock so big God cannot move it. It may be that he doesn’t wish to move it because doing so would trash a demension that has a lot of little critters running around in it that he is fond of. And there’s an even more interesting prospect that doing so might break a promise to those little critters.
It is for good reason that pride is considered the original sin. We live in the natural world and have a natural understanding of things (well, perhaps!). The supernatural by definition is everything that exists Beyond this.
And arrogance has us thinking that everything that is not known must cater to what is known — so we might control it for our own greater glory. That is why arrogance is a suitable sacrifice if we wish to know and participate with the Supernatural.
Without said sacrifice we are just Cain, growing bitter and resentful that the sacrifices we thought were sufficient, were not.
@griz i’d rather be cain than a pawn in a game that’s already been decided, which means the one side is cheating. Y’see at day’s end, even if it’s not a real choice, the illusion of a choice is a preferable one than none at all. Remember in the movie “the matrix” where the guy who betrayed them says that ignorance is bliss, while eating a steak he knew full well to be unreal? I’m that man.
@Jear77 Yet you invite and even depend being an even less powerful pawn in a desperately fatalistic game that ends in the total dissolution of everything. (Sob!)l
You do exactly what you say you don’t want to do, but for far worse reasons and far less optimistic outcome. And also unto you having far far less control over yourself.
Oh and more suffering angst bitterness resentment as well. A perfect Reincarnation of Cain.
@griz being dissolved, no afterlife is my desire! So that’s the greatest of wins for me!
@Jear77 Now hold the phone!
You say the illusion of choice is better than no choice at all.
Yet you rail at the path of Christ which gives the greatest possibility of at least the illusion of choice if not true choice in one’s path??
Sometimes you are so full of incongruities and other stuff!
@griz bingo… welcome to my hypocrisy!
@Jear77 There’s nothing welcoming about it.
The desperation to avoid taking responsibility for oneself can get so profoundly deep and self-destructive.
But the pain and suffering you try to echo onto the world, really exists in you. It comes from being a tangle of incongruities and trying to take glory from it.
The part of you created in God’s image is crying “non sequitur”.
@griz if there is no god provable, that will ALLOW itself to be proven, manipulated by scientific means, that is unwilling to show himself in all his glory (as I said before, god even attempting to reach into this universe in all his glory would likely destroy it)… THAT in and of itself is the biggest non sequitur of all!
@Jear77 Even your standards of evidence are out of whack.
You’re trying to measure everything through only the simplest form of evidence-based science; and totally overlooking hypothesis based science.
You’re doing what is convenient so you can add suffering to the world. And then you complain about the suffering in the world.
You need help.
@griz yet there is one piece of evidence. Christians, despite having a shard, a piece, the very nature of the god of the universe… conveniently can’t DO anything with it. This maked me entirely sure that it’s not me that needs help… but believers!
@Jear77 Is a believer in Life any more gifted with Life than a non-believer?
@griz you would have me believe so! So why can’t the power be used as you see fit? It’s kinda a galactus/ silver surfer problem here
@Jear77 It is! That’s very astute.
The burden of power is proper use of it. Use it properly and you become a creative force of Life.
Use it improperly and you become the veritable harbinger of death. First comes a pervasive and deep death of the personal soul. But this does nothing to assauge the feelings of shame at what one has become. It makes the feelings of shame even worse and then this spirals into resentment and bitterness. (Cain)
Which then causes us to lament ever eating the fruit in the first place that brought the knowledge of both Good and Evil. Far better we say, to have remained blind unconscious animals. Or worse, to strike out in retaliation against life in general (mass murderers).
But that’s only because we’ve partaken of just the evil and not the good.
The good comes from the proper use of power and that means sacrifice of self: of the selfish desire to just use the power for what we want.
@griz but keep in mind the silver surfer was able to use the power cosmic (basically) as he saw fit… even to the point of fighting against his master. Now some of the specifics are different depending on the cartoon. The silver surfer was either barred from his homeworld or trapped in the earth’s solar system as punishment. The holy spirit is presented as a limited type of power cosmic. See my problem here?
@Jear77 I do see the conundrum. It comes in wielding something that is so far behind us we cannot properly comprehend it.
In the Silver Surfer analogy it is important to remember Norrin Rad got his powers from the Devourer of Worlds. It is the archetypal “deal with the devil” story, that then leaves one serving Death and desperate to regain their soul. The Ghost Rider is another expression of this archetypal story.
They gain terrible power but with it comes terrible conditions. Each “hero” made a deep personal sacrifice for apparent good in the short-term; but to something unholy. So the long-term gain was less than ideal to say the least. One is left trying to defeat evil by the power of evil. (Which in a way is what you are trying to do)
This highlights the key difference between making deep personal sacrifice to a Holy Spirit verses an unholy spirit.
The “terrible price” of the power I wield in the Holy Spirit is something akin to “everything that gives the Devourer of Life power over me”. And who couldn’t afford to give that up!?
It is the absolute Trans-Cosmic antithesis of being barred from home or trapped in a self-limiting pocket dimension.
Doing something, running towards or facing down something that scares you to death. I am not a courageous person by my own standards since I refuse to shop at WalMart and Cosco because they scare the hell out of me…and I hate people.
@Novelist65 The observation of clinicians is that little demons are easier to face than big ones.
And that little ones left unchallenged grow into big ones.
Both the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians firmly instantiated these ideas into their mythologies. Seems to me the Romans and Vikings did too.
@griz Size is relative. What would consider big demons?
@Novelist65 Ones big enough to run away with “where we live”!
This comes from a humorous short story who’s title currently escapes me. It was set as a children’s book, but was impressively deep. Essentially this kid discovers that there is a tiny dragon living in the house. The parents deny it. But over time it grows and soon it’s actively spread across the entire first story of the house and everyone’s having to climb over it: but still the parents insist there is no dragon. Soon it’s large enough that it breaks through to the second story and parts of it are poking out windows. The child asks the parents about it, but they insist there is no dragon. Then it’s legs are breaking out through the walls and the dad comes home . . . to find it’s walked off with the entire house!
The size can be relative, depending upon how big (or small) the space is that you consider “where you live”. But it’s a big demon when it can walk off with any aspect of your “home”, your “known”, your “routine”.
(I want to say “safe space” . . . but that part of our vocabulary has been usurped by the various victimhood groups . . . and essentially “walked off”!).
Everywhere! (OTR Trucker)
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