What is it?




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  1. griz 8 months ago

    I’ll have to let you know when I’ve arrived.

    All who wander are not lost.

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  2. Jear77 8 months ago

    Death, ultimately

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    • griz 8 months ago

      @Jear77
      Death physically.

      But can you cite a source for “ultimately”?

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @griz every living thing that perished. Can you cite a source (other than religion/ spiritual teachings) and not something that we can explain medically (i.e. near death experiences) that shows death is not the end. Personal experience doesn’t count here.

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      • griz 8 months ago

        @Jear77
        As I’ve asserted before, a current lack of evidence is not sufficient evidence to presume no evidence can exist.

        So you can point to physical remains, and watch them get absorbed back into the physical ecosystem. And still, no physical means can adequately capture the essence of conscious awareness: yet every single person proceeds as if it’s a very real AND very valuable thing.

        But you have no greater assertion for physical death being “the ultimate” . . . than I do for the supposition that it may not be.

        Zero-sum equation.

        But then factor in that one of our two suppositions doesn’t tend as strongly towards an end-result of resentment, defeatism, despondency, meaninglessness etc.

        And the only “cost” . . . is a germ of humility to not presume ourselves know-it-all’s.

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @griz as opposed to a supposition with zero scientific backing… and a book 2 millennia old. No thanks.

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      • griz 8 months ago

        @Jear77
        I think we’ve had the discussion before about the number of things we find value in that have zero scientific backing.

        We’ve also had the discussion about worshiping a book vs. using the wisdom that it presents as very rich in.

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @griz the wisdom it presents is common sense. If you can’t abide by “don’t kill. Don’t steal. Don’t rape/ sexually harass.” You need to be removed from society by force… perhaps even to the point if removing them by their death Yet more pressing concerns: don’t pollute. Don’t have mutual assured destruction. (if you destroy the *entire* earth everything else is moot)… and the bible doesn’t even talk about these…

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      • griz 8 months ago

        @Jear77
        The interesting point is that it was recorded common sense from a time long before people thought of such things in relationship to such complex things as . . . relationship one with another . . . AND that they wrote it down (not a common thing to do or be able to do in that era).

        It’s akin to a 3 y.o. saying something of profound timeless poignancy, writing it down, and it persisting as a valid point not needing any improvement or expansion upon it for 5,000 years.

        Try teaching a 3 y.o. not just the social niceties, but the foundational reason for them. We should not be so quick to dismiss the truly astounding just because our lens back through time has grown smudged and hazy from lack of use.

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @griz there don’t need to be reasons other than “don’t be an asshole” which those things fall under.

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      • griz 8 months ago

        @Jear77
        We are not very astute as a species, at all the different ways we can be assholes!

        That’s why we need so many laws.

        But unify them all under an overarching archetypal revelation of “good” way to be, and the need for the laws diminishes.

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @griz that still falls under that. One rule, infinitely adaptable to the situation

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      • griz 8 months ago

        @Jear77
        Jesus reduced it to 2.

        The first deals with the dysfunctionality that come with the worship of things like resentment, arrogance and deceit.
        Then the second can effectively deal with everything else.

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @griz i further reduced it by eliminating the spiritual.

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      • griz 8 months ago

        @Jear77
        And then you get to be God!

        Go Jear!

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @griz uhm… no. By *eliminating* the spiritual, I’m saying there’s no such thing that can be proven, therefore it’s useless to follow the ideas of such a system.. I might as well subscribe to pastafarianism. Or the teapot that orbits the sun which exists in a place undetectable by science. Or even alien life that look like little green or grey men that science fiction is filled with. Or perhaps the gods of ancient Egypt or the Greeks.

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      • griz 8 months ago

        @Jear77
        The arrogance is in presuming we have just created or eliminated the Transcendent just by asserting that we have.

        The drive to prove it through human knowledge or sensation is just another masquerade of trying to eliminate it.

        Because if it’s eliminated then there is nothing higher to answer to, than oneself.

        That makes self God.
        And when one then goes off on tears of how horrible God is, the rant is just projection.

        If one has eliminated all save that which one can endemicly own . . . What is there left in the self to rant about . . . other than the natural self?

        This is why we essentially need to be spiritually saved from ourselves. Only then can we truly participate with things transcendent without feeling the need to own master, control . . . or condemn them.

        (An analogy of this works with personal relationship too)

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @griz not so. I have zero divine qualities.
        And it’s useful to know what’s wrong so with ourselves so we can attempt to fix it. For instance, the IBS I deal with is something that science doesn’t know what causes it. They know what makes it worse tho. The issue is following the guidelines.
        As far as saving spiritually… i see no benefit, I’m fine without it. I know how not to be an asshole, without a book of rules. And if i step on someone’s toes living life, I apologize.

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      • griz 8 months ago

        @Jear77
        I call bullshit.

        You routinely boast of an ability to judge and condemn vast tracts of manifest reality and defame anything that might be overseeing it.

        One of the first pitfalls of arrogance that spiritual salvation pulls one out of is the desire to condemn God (Life, manifest Reality) a priori.

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @griz your calling bs to a self proclaimed hypocrite is less than meaningless

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Jear77
        If one violates the social contract how can they expect anything from the society?

        (Except in hypocrisy, which violates the social contract. Feedback loop)

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @griz social contracts means nothing to one who can’t experience them (me), as i have Asperger’s.

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Jear77
        Actually we’ve talked before about blaming conditions. They are reasons why something might be harder; not blanket excuses. To use one as such means one has become just a function of the condition rather than the condition simply being a function of them.

        You spoke in another thread about nobody liking a cheater.
        Isn’t is a form of “cheating” to always have a ready excuse to not even try to work within the social contract?

        To be aware enough of hypocrisy to use asperger’s as an excuse for it (especially when it hasn’t been specifically mentioned) would seem to indicate sufficient awareness of it in oneself. . . to do something about it: rather than just excuse it away as the fault of a condition.

        I can accept that it’s harder. But there’s something very “cheating” to be so ready to fling an excuse as buttress against even trying to change (own, or correct) something that one is very consciously aware of in themself.

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @griz actually not. Medical conditions don’t apply, don’t count as excuses as they’re… (gasp) Medical! Any judge will back me on this.

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Jear77
        How far do you think Stephen Hawking would have got if he used his medical condition as an excuse?

        Depending upon what kind of a contract you violated, you might have a hard time finding that judge that would vindicate you based on Asperger’s!

        Our various medical conditions can be the reasons for things; but it is a self condemning dead-end to consider them as blanket excuses.

        A mindset of entitled exclusion almost never spins positive.

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @griz is it fair to ask a blind man to see? A deaf man to hear? A mute to talk? A completely paralyzed man to walk? No. *First* give the miracle, then it can happen.

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Jear77
        I can understand the motivation to reach for the extremes. This motivation being triggered means one is treading very close to some very sensitive ground.

        Our ailments as disqualifying excuse is very sensitive ground. But I return to the example of Stephen Hawking, and would add Christopher Reeve and Joni Eareckson. Do we really want to compare Asperger’s to quadriplegia??

        Their various afflictions gave them reasons why things were harder for them. But if they let them become excuses they would have languished in obscurity and died forgotten

        There is a very stark line between us having afflictions and afflictions having us. Be very wary of victimhood thinking. No good comes from it.

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @griz more to tbe point that dealing with such things is idiotic in the extreme. In doing my best to be nice, i have to wonder how many opportunities i have let pass me by. And that has me at 40 years old working a minimum wage job. By and large the majority of people don’t. At this point, i can’t even try.

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Jear77
        As I’ve said before, I do relate. I worked below minimum wage until my late 40’s. And I don’t say the things I do to be mean or to try to “win” some arbitrary joust.
        I’m actually a case-study in how someone can come from such a place — complete with challenges, issues, baggage, “oppressions” and “conditions”, and still make a go of it.

        I’m not trying to belittle Asperger’s or the challenges — even suffering — it can produce. But I’m concerned you on a very dark path with an even darker time to come. And I don’t want to leave to to run into dark places where I’ve already run and found just a suburb of hell waiting for me.

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @griz not really. Just to be a bit more assertive. Missing a train or bus because I had to wait on a person, instead of going around them or telling them to hurry and thereby missing the interview because I’m less than 5 minutes late and didn’t call? Come on!

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Jear77
        While your reason may be a valid one, a potential employer could not help but asking themselves if as an employee, you would continue to have “reasons” (or excuses) for missing important deadlines.

        Consider too, the impression an interviewer would get from someone arriving 15 minutes early for an appointment.

        Which would not be the same impression as someone arriving 2 hours early for an appointment.

        Which would not be the same impression as someone arriving a day early for an appointment!

        The ability to look beyond one’s own personal context is a skill. One that may not come as easily to someone with certain afflictions.

        But hey! A total quadriplegic lacking the ability to even dress himself and take care of personal bodily functions . . . went on to become the director of research at the Centre for Theoretical Cosmology at the University of Cambridge, the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at the University of Cambridge for 30 years, achieve outrageous financial success as a best-selling author, receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and many more too numerous to mention here.

        So what is within the realm of possibility here?

        And what is forever outside the realm of possibility if one cops a victimhood attitude?

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @griz time is relative.
        A minute in boring situations can see like an hour.

        A day can fly by and it’s gone.

        It probably didn’t help that sometimes i didn’t have the place’s phone number. Haste makes waste. But if i went and wasted my $ (which i didn’t have at the time to waste), the least the place should have done is returned it to me.

        but the place I work now… wastes 30 minutes of its employee’s time daily. What type of art related problems occurred, announcements, etc. Easy fix, give us all a sheet we can read on post (there’s plenty of time, as many galleries often are empty) or have in the break room.

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Jear77
        From a perspective trapped inside just ourselves, yes. But time is “the invention” by which we orchestrate interpersonal relationship within shared reality.
        (I like that phenomenology recognizes that there is also a personal reality that is not necessarily the same as the shared reality. It gets a lot of traction by stepping outside of the constraints of the more empirically analytical diagnosis methods. It can recognize a child’s nightmare for example, as something to deal with as genuinely “real” to the child, and not just tell them “it’s meaningless” and go back to bed).

        That’s a bummer about missing the appointment and not having their number. But from their perspective, it had a lot of “meaning” that factored against you. Still, a good lesson perhaps: factor being at important appointments at least 15-30 minutes before you actually need to be there. I do this in trucking all the time, adjusting it for all kinds of variables (cities I have to travel through, time of day, time-zones, time of year). It gives you “wiggle-room”. Over just a few years I’ve become the company’s most reliable keeper of deadlines — quite an accomplishment for someone with ADD and the time-distortions it can cause.

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @griz there are times i left in plenty of time… but the problem is that something messed my schedule up. One missed bus/ train can cause a dominoe effect.

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Jear77
        Same with one accident or road closure. Or a truck inspection station selecting you for a Level-1 inspection! (They really don’t give a shit that an hour delay can mean you miss a Friday drop and have to spend the entire weekend babysitting a load in a urine-scented truckstop!)
        Some you cannot allow for, without being that person that shows up a day early for the appointment!

        But we still can account for a lot by simply leaving earlier — and then find a nice coffee-shop in the area and relax with a book or the company of friends on the internet! (Just set an alarm in case you get engrossed in something interesting and lose track of time!)

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @griz When I was looking for work, I was there for business. Get in, get out, get home. On occasion I may have had time to visit my friends here, but by and large, it took ALL my energy to GET there, DEAL with the people for the time it took to interview, and get back home. It’s back to the whole smoke and mirrors thing. I have to act a certain way because it’s what society expects me to do to make a living. And I’m so past the point of care because of the stress and exhaustion dealing with my roommate/ business partner. I only keep up appearances at the museum because i need the money, need to be away from him, and I’m on camera. MORE than half the time I wander the posts in a daze (tho I’m always functional enough to have a brief conversation with management if they stop), only aware enough to see the MOST flagrant violations of their “no touching” policy. About a month and a half ago (before my 90 day mark) I was been SO tired that I couldn’t even be bothered to call out an “art related” because I didn’t want to play “20 questions” and my brain wasn’t functional enough to piece together a description of the person in question.

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      • luftballooneyegouge 7 months ago

        @griz admitted, “I worked below minimum wage until my late 40’s”.

        ?????????????????????????

        Seriously?

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @luftballooneyegouge
        Seriously.

        There were other factors which I have not gone into, that made it the most reasonable (and in hindsight, correct) decision for the time.

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      • luftballooneyegouge 7 months ago

        @griz
        I think you should preface all the “sage” lectures you spew, with something like, ‘although I spent the first 3 decades of my working life making less than minimum wage’…………

        ….seriously.

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @luftballooneyegouge
        In what way do you think someone making a bigger paycheck would be more likely to have valuable insight or advice?

        For how long have you been making more than minimum wage? Applying the same standard, shouldn’t that mean your insight or advice should be of significantly higher quantity and quality? :wink:

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      • luftballooneyegouge 7 months ago

        @griz
        It’s not about a bigger paycheck as much as it is about a repetition of working for less than a living wage, let alone a legal wage, for up to half of one’s average life-span.

        Without more data it comes off as sheer gullibility, from the guy going around pointing at whole groups of people and proclaiming they’re more gullible than another.

        I should not have to explain this.

        The last time I made less than minimum wage was doing an after school paper route when I was in grade school.

        Let’s not compare the quantity or quality of my insights compared with yours.
        It wouldn’t be pretty.

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @luftballooneyegouge
        I should not have to point out that “what it comes off to others as”, often doesn’t reflect what it actually is.

        I beat the odds (as defined by society) by not just living but living well off of “less than a living wage”, but flourishing.
        Perhaps what the might (or should?) come off to others as, is “Hey, they guy did what society said could not be done and came off better for it. Maybe there is some sage advice or outlook there?”.

        You wanted to try to dismiss this based on income. I have proven that I’m not a function of income. It presents perks and challenges when present and absent.
        But I am not a function of money. (It influences, but doesn’t control me)

        I was not wanting to compare quantity or quality of outlook or insights. I was just pointing out that in that mental construct someone who had made above minimum wage for longer should consistently perform better in outlook and insight.
        It’s just not a valid construct.

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      • luftballooneyegouge 7 months ago

        @griz
        So why are you reluctant to give the further data that explains this, instead of wasting more time, coming up with accusations.

        I wasn’t dismissing anything based on income. It just struck me as amazing that anyone could work for less than minimum wage until their late 40s. I’ve never heard of anything like this, & am skeptical that it’s even true & not just more hyperbole.

        Like I already stated, it’s the repetition of substandard living to the point, since you won’t elaborate, that one can only assume comes from selling oneself short,… for decades.

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @luftballooneyegouge
        For years I was probably selling myself short in certain senses.
        But that whole vast set of circumstances is what allowed me to reach the insights and outlooks I have today.
        Many of which reach out with benefit beyond just me. So I call that a valid and beneficial set of experiences. It’s a valid investment strategy to sell short in the now, for future gain. I am living in those future gains.

        Data on my life is only for specific applied use online. I think you can agree that putting one’s life on internet display is a foolish thing to do.

        But take a moment and examine your addiction to data. In wanting someone else to do all the work and take all the risk . . . and then if you don’t like the conclusion you will just dismiss it out-of-hand.
        Sometimes you have to take the risk and do the work; especially when it comes to the epistemology of your own beliefs grasshopper.

        It is fun watching you try to get my goat.

        But my goat knows kung-fu.

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 7 months ago

        @griz I get way less than the minimum wage

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @Yoshikawa does your country have a minimum wage?

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Jear77
        I think they even have paved roads!

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 7 months ago

        @Jear77 I think minimum wage is around $17 an hour or more. When I worked at maccas (all those years ago) I was being paid like $4.70 an hour. I really enjoyed working at maccas it was my first job and I was working amongst some cool people

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Yoshikawa
        There’s an artform to it that few can appreciate — namely because few have tried without relying upon social assistance.

        If you do it well, you have my respect.

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 7 months ago

        @Jear77 you can be found not guilty if you have a mental health problem – that’s medical

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    • Author
      Yoshikawa 8 months ago

      @Jear77 and then?

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @Yoshikawa uhm… dust.

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 8 months ago

        @Jear77 dust? Don’t you mean a skeleton? What about stars – don’t you think they’re odd?

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @Yoshikawa the flesh comes off the bones, sure… but I’m getting cremated

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 8 months ago

        @Jear77 do you sprinkle it on your steak?

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      • Jear77 8 months ago

        @Yoshikawa ashes on steak?

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 7 months ago

        @Jear77 for that lovely taste…

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @Yoshikawa no

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 7 months ago

        @Jear77 urns look dodgy, you always see them on movies getting spilt

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @Yoshikawa scattered by the wind

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Jear77
        Hmm. A future as particulate air pollution?
        Or have a local pub stir you into all their drinks and the drunks can have fun pissing you up against the wall!

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @griz ashes are light enough to be blown around by wind, but large enough not to be airborne permanently

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 7 months ago

        @Jear77 what do you want to happen when you die? Cremated, buried, overdose, etc?

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      • Jear77 7 months ago

        @Yoshikawa cremation in really the route to go for 99.9% of humanity. Why burry a body to have it turn into bones? It’s kinda useless…

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 7 months ago

        @griz what do thou mean about pissing on a wall….

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Yoshikawa
        It could be a regional expression if you haven’t heard of it. Pissing something up against the wall means wasting it.

        A lot of people proverbially piss their life up against the wall. So why not let all the local lushes join in the celebration!?

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Yoshikawa
        Yea. And then the relatives have to come and suck you up with the dustbuster, and you’re mixed with all kinds of other household schmutz and they have to stick you in some tupperware or a ziplock baggie until they can order another “residence” for you. (Or just dump you out in the garden and all the flowers come to animate life, but with a mean streak!)

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 7 months ago

        @griz the dustbuster if it is dropped the urn would pick up pubes and no one wants that in their urn.

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Yoshikawa
        Could be some symbolism at work if the relatives thought you were something close to a dick!
        :rolf:

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 7 months ago

        @griz talking from experience are we?

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      • griz 7 months ago

        @Yoshikawa
        I’m not dead yet; and no relatives ensconced in jars!

        Family tradition has been to stick them in the ground and let nature proceed.

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      • Author
        Yoshikawa 7 months ago

        @Jear77 i punished you with a dislike

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  3. barryjack 7 months ago

    I’m not sure. I can’t say that there isn’t a destination, but I can say that it changes faster than I can set a course.

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  4. fosheet 7 months ago

    It’s ultimately not about the destination, but the journey (at least for myself). I’m not sure where I’ll end up, but I’m trying my hardest to make it worthwhile.

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